Valentin & Inken: hier ist Inken vom Was tun? Podcast und heute gibt es mal wieder eine Folge von uns. Wir sprechen mit dem Journalisten und Aktivisten Ross Finkelstein darüber, wie er sich aktuell im Haustürwahlkampf in New York City dafür einsetzt, dass Zoran Mamdani, ein demokratischer Sozialist, der neue Bürgermeister von New York City wird. Und jetzt viel Spaß bei der Folge.

Russ Finkelstein: what is to be learned from Zoran's success is not simply like the tactics or his ability to communicate effectively or his ability to make really good social media videos, which I think is the lesson that a lot of the democratic establishment wants to take. want to say, if we get like any centrist young person who is going to take money from the Israel lobby and they're going to take money from the pharmaceutical industry and the insurance companies. That's the way that democratic campaigns usually run. And we'll just make them younger and we'll make really good social media videos for them. That's, that's what we can do, right? Like we'll, take what Zoran did and we'll, and we'll do it for someone who thinks like us. And I think it's important to like emphasize and remind people. What's at the center of the movement that Zoran is a part of and what's at the center of his campaign is actually the policies. And hope and I think that that can increasingly be like a, established fact and that we're not like trying to debate whether it's like Zoran's age or it's his looks or it's his charisma that is Zoran has essentially created or brought into the fold a new constituency that like previously was not really a force in New York politics, which is like South Asians. There's like a growing number of people from Bangladesh and New York. I don't know the numbers, but it's like one of the fastest growing immigrant groups in the city. And this is like a relatively new, like idea to like really target ⁓ Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and like Muslims, South Asians. Zoran has that like legitimacy with them because that's his own like ethnic and religious. identity. So like it was one of the groups that the campaign targeted from like way going back to last year was going to the mosques of Bangladeshi people speaking at their mosque speaking with the imams and like those are people who are among the most marginalized and oppressed people in New York going back to 9-11 you know like Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have like endured so much oppression and like marginalization and have been almost completely cut out of like the American political system. So this was like a tremendous innovation. And I think that his positions on Israel and Gaza definitely helped him to mobilize those people.

Valentin & Inken: herzlich willkommen zum Was tun? Podcast. Hier sprechen wir einmal im Monat mit Aktivistinnen und Aktivisten darüber, wie wir als Linke nicht nur kämpfen, sondern auch gewinnen können. Wir, sind Inken Bährmann und Valentin Ißen. Wir sprechen beide viel über politische Strategie und machen diesen Podcast, um unsere Diskussionen mit euch zu Ja, heute wagen wir den Schwenk hin von der deutschen Politik in die Vielleicht habt ihr schon mal von Zoran Mamdani gehört. Das ist eine der neuen schillernden Figuren im Kampf gegen Donald Trump und aktuell die Bürgermeisterschaft von New York City. Der 34-jährige Demokrat, der ist innerhalb von einem Jahr von einem eigentlich total unbekannten Lokalpolitiker. im Wahlkampf die Bürgermeisterschaft von New York City geworden. Und das, obwohl oder vielleicht auch gerade weil er bekennender Sozialist Mamdani ist zentrale Forderung und seine Wahlversprechen an die New Yorkerinnen und New sind ein Mietendeckel für sozialen Wohnraum in der ganzen Stadt, kostenlose Kitaplätze und und staatlich betriebene Supermärkte mit günstigen Preisen für alle. Was in New York passiert, seitdem Mamdani seine Kandidatur angekündigt hat, ist kaum zu glauben. Bei der Vorwahl der Demokraten Ende Juni dieses Jahres hat Mamdani sich gegen den aktuellen Bürgermeister von New York, Eric New Yorks, Andrew Cuomo, durchgesetzt. die demokratischen primaries, gelten als wichtige Vorentscheidung in New York. das seit zehn Jahren von Demokraten regiert wird und bei dem ein Sieg in den Primaries als wichtiger Vorentscheid für die eigentliche Wahl zum Bürgermeister gilt. Mamdani hat das jetzt aber nicht ganz alleine gemacht, sondern seine Kandidatur wurde schon zu Beginn getragen von der ziemlich breiten zu der auch die Democratic Socialists of America gehören, so einer Suborganisation innerhalb der Demokratischen deren Aktivisten haben in Haustürgesprächen und in den direkten Tür für Tür die Menschen davon überzeugt, dass Mamdani genau der richtige Kandidat für das Amt des Bürgermeisters ist. Bevor die New Yorkerinnen jetzt am 4. November final abstimmen, haben wir bei Russ Finkelstein aus New York nachgefragt, was die Kampagne eigentlich so besonders und wie Mamdani es geschafft hat mit radikalen Forderungen in so einer großen Stadt so populär zu werden. Russ Finkelstein ist New Yorker, Journalist und Teil der Organisation Democratic Socialist for die man Dani seit Beginn seiner Kampagne unterstützt. Inken und ich haben uns gefragt, was wir in Deutschland von Mamdani's Kampagne lernen hier für anstehende übernehmen können. Jetzt viel Spaß bei der Folge. Viel Spaß.

Russ Finkelstein: been living in New York now years. I grew up in California, but my parents are from New York and my older siblings are from here. So I moved here in 2011 to go school for journalism. And got into the Zoran campaign because Well, as a journalist, you know, it's been professionally compromising perhaps to like advocate any sort of like political position publicly. But I lost my job. I was working at CNN and I was laid off in 2024. They canceled the show that I had been working on. And so I had always been like, you know, a democratic socialist or a left-wing person for as long as I can remember. And as soon as I lost my job, I took the opportunity to volunteer for another political campaign for someone who's running for the state assembly, which is like the legislature for the state of New York. Her name is Valdez, and she won that race. she was running in the district I live in here in Queens. And that was when I joined DSA like officially, although I had been very sympathetic to the DSA and to their politicians positions for years, I had been concerned that joining the DSA or being affiliated with the campaign could compromise my or my job, you know. So I took that step 2024 and then

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: yeah, there became maybe a year ago that, Zoran Mamdani was going to run for the mayor's race and the DSA was talking about endorsing him. and that was a conversation that I was sort of like a part of within the organization last year. And then as soon as he announced he was running, I signed up to start canvassing, uh, which involves.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: you know, knocking on doors, handing out flyers at the farmers market here close to my house, speaking with your neighbors. And yeah, so I got involved in the campaign basically right when it launched. Yeah, and I've been canvassing for Zoran ever since.

Valentin & Inken: You've mentioned DSA now for a couple of times. Maybe could you briefly explain what the organization is all about and you joined the Democratic Socialists of America in the first place?

Russ Finkelstein: Sure. The Democratic Socialists of America has been around for a few decades. It existed mostly the fringes of American during the 2015 presidential primary, Bernie Sanders was running in that primary race. And he brought a lot of people into his campaign and a lot of people into DSA. was when I first became aware of the DSA, was in 2015, because of Bernie Sanders's campaign. The DSA is a member organization, it's not a political party per se. And what that means is that we as members, pay a due. We pay every month in New York, I think it's $15 a month. And because it's not officially a political party according to election law. It means that the DSA essentially operates as a caucus within the Democratic Party. It's part of the strategy of the organization run Democratic socialist candidates, usually in primaries within the Democratic Party. And then like, you know, Bernie Sanders was a DSA backed candidate in 2016, again in 2020. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who's now one of the most famous American political figures, was a DSA backed candidate. She won her race in 2018. Actually, the district that she won was where I live now. So, DSA a national organization, but it has chapters in cities around the country. And the chapters operate pretty autonomously. Each chapter has a lot of democratic processes to make decisions about different platforms and candidates. So New York City DSA, I think it's fair to say is the most prominent and powerful of the chapters because of the number of elected leaders that we've put into office, including AOC. And now it looks like Zoran who will be, you know, if he wins, probably the most prominent, you know, municipal leader of the DSA.

Valentin & Inken: Yeah, that's very interesting. think for our German listeners, we ⁓ also maybe need to explain that the DSA, as you said, is mostly kind of endorsing or running candidates in primaries in the US where you have the majority electoral system, where in some places like in New York City, or also like in Washington DC, in some of the cities, the primary is almost the real election because it's so... so probable that the Democrat will win the big election, the real election that's going to come. So that's a very interesting strategic point to intervene organization inside a party. More or less, yeah. So, but maybe we zoom into New York City now and you live in New York City. ⁓ Maybe you can give a short overview or something.

Russ Finkelstein: Yes. I do.

Valentin & Inken: about what has happened over the course of the last year. You just said were rumors about a year ago that was joining the election. Maybe you can just take the listeners a little bit on the journey and what has happened since.

Russ Finkelstein: there was an understanding that basically if Zoran launched his campaign, the DSA would essentially run the campaign or at least the, the leadership of the campaign would draw heavily from the DSA's leadership, which at this point has, especially in Queens where I live, within New York City DSA we have a chapter for each borough, so Queens has its own Our chapter is pretty experienced at this point at winning elections. So a lot of the leadership of Queens DSA and New York City DSA essentially became the the infrastructure, like the human infrastructure for the Zoran campaign as soon as it launched, which meant he had a tremendous amount of volunteers and a big network of people who were highly engaged. Because the other thing about the DSA is it's relatively small. I think New York City DSA is like a few thousand, you know, It's not super big. But because it's a dues paying organization, people are paying money to be members. This is to be a member of the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. All you have to do is register like when you registered a vote, you just check a box that says which party you are. You don't have to do anything else. But because DSA is like a highly engaged organization, it means that soon Zon campaign launched, was a tremendous amount of highly mobilized people exerting a lot of energy very early in the race when most people are not paying attention to the mayor's race at all. And I think the other thing that happened was like Trump won 2024 election. It happened sort of simultaneously. these two like processes like overlap. So there was a lot of highly mobilized members of the DSA who were willing to go out in cold weather and knock on doors and tell people about Zoran and donate money to the Zoran campaign. And then there was also lot of anger, and negative energy because of Donald Trump that people wanted to put that energy somewhere. and invest it somewhere. And when Zoran first launched his campaign, I think he was polling at 1 % or less than 1%. Very few people knew who he was outside of the few thousand people within DSA. And there was, I don't know how many people, I think at one point there was like 10 or 12 people running in the Democratic primary, including the mayor, the current mayor. And Andrew Cuomo ended up announcing officially a few months later, but Everyone sort of assumed that he was also going to run. And so those are two very powerful and prominent politicians. And Zoran did a very good job of distinguishing himself, I think, through a lot of social media clips and videos he was making. He has like a very savvy team of filmmakers who are making these like really smart social media videos. He's an incredibly charismatic person. on camera, in addition to in person. So that helped gain him a lot of attention as well. And then in addition to that, the platform that he's put together, together with DSA is very simple. It's very easy to understand. And I think it grabs a lot of people's attention because it speaks to, know, people's economic need at a time when the economy is kind of struggling and and in fact like if you look at a lot of the messaging from Zoran's early campaign videos it actually has to do with Why people voted for Donald Trump? Despite all of the reasons why people dislike Donald Trump in the 2024 election New York swayed like several percentage points in Donald Trump's favor. He did not win New York, but he

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: He lost by a smaller margin than he did in 2020 or in 2016. So Zoran was speaking in the wake of Trump's election to the same economic precarity that motivated a lot of people to vote for Donald Trump. And a lot of these people are not very engaged with politics. Like maybe they're not following the news every day. Maybe they're not. super invested in a mayor's race that's like a year and a half away, but they know that, you know, they're spending too much on childcare. They know the rent is too expensive. They know the bus service is bad and it's expensive. And these are all things that Zoran was messaging around very early on. And since then, obviously he's picked up a lot of momentum and now he's almost certain to win.

Valentin & Inken: Yeah, that's really incredible. Just recently I watched a video where it also said that at the beginning of the race only 1 % in the polls were saying that they would ⁓ vote for Zoran and now he has won the and is now the democratic candidate against very well-known figures in the city.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah. Yeah.

Valentin & Inken: And so it has really been a very unlikely year in New York politics, I guess. But you already mentioned that the campaign is focusing a lot on economic demands. And something that I find really remarkable campaign is that he always hammers down the same, I think it's four demands that focus very on common sense, ⁓ economic policy. And no matter what someone asks him, he will always ⁓ come back to these demands. And I think that's ⁓ really important and also very intelligent campaigning tactic that people really understand what you are all about. Could you tell us again what the demands are and also in your canvassing practice, what's your experience when you knock on doors and talk to people from the neighborhood when it comes to these economic policies.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah. So I think perhaps the most prominent of his demands or at least the one that most speaks economic problems of New York freeze the rent. It's a three word phrase. It means, you know, keep the rent where it is now without allowing the rent to increase. There's a, you know, the majority of people in New York live in rented apartments. Most people don't own the homes that they live in So a demand that, and rent is very expensive in New York, more, I don't know, maybe there's San Francisco now or other cities, maybe Los Angeles has high rent, but I would assume New York has one of the highest costs of housing of any city in the country. We have a housing shortage. There's not enough. apartments for people to live in. So prices are incredibly expensive and this is something that when I speak to people on doors is like the first thing that they want to know about and the first thing they ask about. of the strategies that I think has been very powerful is the simplicity of like the phrases themselves that are very easy to remember. So freeze the rent is three words. Now, The meaning is a little bit more complicated because it's not speaking about freezing the rent of every single apartment. What it pertains to is there's like, I think it's two million apartments or something like that. there's a certain number of apartments that's a substantial amount where the city basically regulates the price. And the mayor has the ability to appoint a certain number of people who sit on a board and those people determine the amount that those apartments will either increase or stay the same in rent. So sometimes you speak to people when you knock on the door and they say like, well, he says freeze the rent, but he's not really gonna be able to do that because my landlord determines how much I pay for rent. And you have to tell them, yes.

Valentin & Inken: Hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: The idea is to freeze the rent for the rent controlled and rent stabilized apartments, not for every apartment on the free market. But if they are able to freeze the rent for those specific, the rent controlled apartments, that would mean that the overall price would be like kept lower. So because of like the, ability for people to live in a rent controlled apartment, if those prices

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: stay the same without increasing and rent the ideas is that that would also prevent increases in rent in the private free market units. So some of these policies involve like a little bit more discussion with people when they when they ask about them. like free buses, you know, like that's another one. But buses, he wants the buses to be fast and free because New York is a very congested city. The subway goes a lot of places, but it doesn't go everywhere. so sometimes people take the bus and there's a lot of traffic. And in addition to the traffic, in my experience, a lot of people actually already take the bus for free because they just get on the back. I don't know if this happens in Germany. You guys seem like a more orderly society or at least that's the stereotype, but, um, yeah. So people ask about that. Like, how is he going to make the buses, free if

Valentin & Inken: Yeah.

Russ Finkelstein: The buses are controlled by the MTA, which is a state run agency. The municipal government of New York does not control the authority that would determine whether the bus can be free. But there's a certain amount of leverage you have as a city leader and you can negotiate and bargain with the state government. And this has happened in the past with you know, other mayors and other issues pertaining to mass transit. again, I think the key to getting people's attention and drawing them into the campaign is the simplicity of the proposal and not being scared to make a declarative simple promise when the truth is, yes, of course there are like, there's more nuance and there's more complexity. to the issue, but it's a good jumping off point for discussion and it's a good, I think, effective goal to be set when so much of the Democratic Party and so much of what we've seen in my lifetime, like in the last 20 or 30 years of American politics is this hyper proposal, where everything seems like a lawyer went over it with like a fine tooth comb and made everything a little bit less attractive by watering it down. So I think that's, yeah, that's part of the beauty of the campaign is the simplicity of these phrases.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And maybe tell us about the last two ones. It's like free childcare. I think that's easy to understand for Germans because at least in Berlin we also have free childcare. In other parts of Germany we don't, but there's like childcare as a set system. But what about the public grocery stores? I was very curious about that idea.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, I think, you know, the free grocery stores is one that like the right wing loves to like, make a big spectacle out of because they're we have like a very robust, like anti-communist mentality here that's like, in my opinion, polluted our politics. this is what they, yeah, we know how this will go in Cuba and in Venezuela and the Soviet Union. Yeah.

Valentin & Inken: You Prices are low, but there's nothing to buy and there's a big queue.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, people are going to be starving and waiting in line for a loaf of bread or something. No, the idea is that they're going to put, they want to put five grocery stores strategically in places that are underserviced with fresh groceries, which is a big problem here in New York because real estate is expensive and because in lower income neighborhoods where people have less money, it's less profitable to run a grocery store. So there's neighborhoods, they call them food deserts. And it means like these are places that the people who live in them don't have very easy access to fresh fruits and vegetables and it causes like health problems for people because the food they have the best access to is highly processed and it's not healthy. So the idea is to take spaces in those neighborhoods and establish grocery stores there that don't have to pay rent to a private landlord to make

Valentin & Inken: Mm-mm.

Russ Finkelstein: the operating of the grocery store less cost effective, they're still going to private sector produced ⁓ items, you know, like there's going to be like New York City ⁓ produced cheese in New York City produced milk is my understanding is it's actually not that really innovative of an idea. It's kind of like a market that you have like, I don't know, like I used to live in Latin America. had

Valentin & Inken: Hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: A municipal market in almost every town and city where the city sets up like the infrastructure of the market and then the it facilitates the selling of those goods in that space. So that's the idea. I think it's the budget is $60 million, which is not very much money for a city that has a budget of what it is like. Billions and billions of dollars. So of all of his programs, it would be like the least expensive and sort of like the one that the city government could most easily put into practice. And I think it's attractive to people because yeah, groceries are expensive. It's a big part of the discussion. I don't know if you saw the mayor's debate last week, but this has also become like a thing in American politics where like, if you're in a debate, they're gonna ask you like, how much is a gallon of milk? How much is a loaf of bread? Because they want to see how, if you're really out of touch and you have no idea how much things cost. So it's a way to reduce the prices by some of the profit motive.

Valentin & Inken: yeah. Yeah.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, so they want to eliminate some of the incentive that goes into like the real estate and the personnel and give people in these communities jobs and facilitate people buying and consuming healthier food. And it's not going to be very expensive to do. And also, by the way, there's already like dozens of municipally owned supermarkets in the United States.

Valentin & Inken: I never knew. Yeah, I find it interesting. Like often we say that ⁓ economic policy is very something that's really hard to campaign because it's so difficult. Like everyone agrees on it. But in like the attention economy in the end, the culture wars or always, always win or always outbid the economic demands. But here, With these four, it's really like no-brainers and it really connects to the everyday experience of New Yorkers probably. Do you think this is also the reason why it's working so well or what's your hunch?

Russ Finkelstein: Yes. And yeah, I think in general, the Zoran campaign is successful because it's very refreshing to hear American politician like espouse these ideas that seem like common sense, especially to people of my generation or younger generations. And I think one of the reasons why there's such a big contrast between this sort of politics and what's come before. is because there's so much corruption here. And there's so much capture, you know, like if you're running for mayor of New York, traditionally, you've needed the support of the real estate lobby. It's a very influential sector of the economy. so previous political campaigns for mayor are always thinking about what they can say and what they can't say based on whether the real estate lobby is going to get mad at And because Zoran has had this army with volunteers and the DSA behind him, he's been very brave in terms of putting out these policies that, you know, the other one is like the supermarket lobby. There's also like a pretty powerful local political and business figure who owns a radio station and a chain of and this guy hates Zoran Mamdani and is like in fact, he owns the station that Curtis Lee wa has a radio show on and Now he's trying well he supposedly tried to get Curtis Lee what to drop out because it seems Andrew Cuomo has a better chance of winning beating Zoran, but anyway like These are powerful business interests and because of our system that allows for so much money to enter into the political system in terms of buying ads, paying canvassers to go knock on doors, billboards, all this stuff. it's usually too powerful of a structure for someone to propose policies that go directly against those interests.

Valentin & Inken: Yeah, at least if people are not fed up enough and it seems like people are really, really fed up now. Just to maybe get our listeners in a little bit with all the figures that we've talked about now, just maybe very short sorting.

Russ Finkelstein: Eric Adams, who's the current mayor, who's a Democrat, announced that he was going to run as an independent. he didn't, Eric Adams was elected as a Democrat, then there's been a series of investigations into his mayorship and his campaign.

Valentin & Inken: All right.

Russ Finkelstein: There's a lot of corruption, like a lot of his inner circle have been indicted and charged with crimes. Eric Adams worked at a deal with the Department of Justice to drop the criminal charges against him. A lot of people say it was an exchange for Donald Trump to basically do this like immigration crack down here. And so anyway, Eric Adams became like a very politically toxic figure. He still is, but he's still the mayor. It's a very like bizarre situation. He said he was going to run for reelection, but not as a Democrat. So the primary then became a race mostly and Andrew Cuomo, the former governor, the son of the former governor who resigned.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: from office during the pandemic because of a series of scandals. Some of them involved like sexual harassment allegations by members of his staff. I think more notably, often overlooked was he under reported the amount of people who died during the pandemic in nursing homes and was also receiving a lot of money over the course of his career. from the nursing home industry, which is also a pretty powerful lobby here. he signed an executive order when he was the governor that said, if you die from COVID in a nursing home, the nursing home cannot be held responsible, essentially. So they were sending people from the hospitals who they knew were infected with COVID, and they're sending them to the nursing homes and infecting the entire nursing home. And thousands and thousands of people died this way. And there was an investigation.

Valentin & Inken: Hmm, interesting. you

Russ Finkelstein: a state legislative investigation into that. That state investigation ended up becoming a news story. And the previous mayor, Bill de Blasio, said once in an interview that Andrew Cuomo was a bully, that Andrew Cuomo had bullied him. And as soon as the mayor of New York City said that, then these women came out and started to say that he had harassed or assaulted them.

Valentin & Inken: Hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: He ended up resigning from office, but now he's back. also he, he as the defense attorney for Benjamin Netanyahu in the international case against him for war crimes in Gaza. So anyway, that's who Andrew Cuomo is. And he lost, Andrew Cuomo lost the primary, the Democratic primary. and is still running now in the general election. There's also a Republican nominee whose name is Curtis Lewa. If you like weird, funny people in politics, do yourself a favor. Go Google Curtis Lewa and watch some videos because he's really, really a funny guy. He started this like neighborhood watch sort of vigilante organization called the Guardian Angels. They wear these like red berets and

Valentin & Inken: You

Russ Finkelstein: the streets and supposedly keep people safe but Curtis Leewell was also shot five times he says by like a mafia family and he currently lives in a studio apartment with his wife and 17 cats. You can read it you could read all about it in in our tabloids here he's he's quite the character.

Valentin & Inken: Wow. And so on the ballot there will be now in November Zoran Mamdani, Andrew Cuomo, Eric Adams, but he has said that he kind of encourages his voters to vote for Cuomo and Curtis Lever. Yes. Yeah. And there was a very interesting moment in the debate where Zoran Mamdani and Andrew Cuomo talked to one another.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that's right.

Valentin & Inken: Andrew Cuomo will always ⁓ try to put forward the claim that Mamdani has no experience whatsoever and that becoming a mayor is too hard of a job to learn it on the job. then Mamdani answered that what he doesn't have an experience, she an integrity, thereby attacking Andrew Cuomo's ⁓ many

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah.

Valentin & Inken: scandals and failures. And I think that sums up the atmosphere, the political atmosphere right now quite nicely, that people are so fed up with the political establishment they vote for someone who was really like an outside figure, not well known at all, and it's really like an outside candidate who has now risen to the occasion. I find it really interesting and very unlikely and this ⁓ part of the debate summed it up quite nicely, I thought.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, I think the most telling part of the debate for me was they asked the three candidates who was their favorite US president. And I think Andrew Cuomo said Bill Clinton, which is like, mean, he worked in he worked in the Bill Clinton administration. So that's probably why he said that. But like, it's just, you know, the president who everyone remembers as sort of being one of the like

Valentin & Inken: Hahaha

Russ Finkelstein: most responsible for the neoliberalization of the economy, the outsourcing of jobs, and also the sexual harassment and inappropriate sexual behavior scandals. Zoran said Franklin Roosevelt, who was the president responsible for the creation of our welfare state, basically, the creation of Social Security and the New Deal, this very robust

Valentin & Inken: New Deal.

Russ Finkelstein: social democratic, frankly, like public policy. And then Curtis Lee Wah said George Pataki, who was never the president. Perfect.

Valentin & Inken: Yeah, that's amazing. It's like, think saying Bill Clinton as the favorite president in the US would be similar to saying Gerhard Schröder in Germany, would also be very weird. Yeah, would also just today be a total no-go also because of Schröder's connections to Putin. However.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, it's just like, it's like such a clearly like demarcated line of like, like someone whose brain is still in like 1998 or something, you know?

Valentin & Inken: Yeah.

Valentin: Ich wollte die Pause kurz nutzen, mich bei all unseren Fördermitgliedern zu bedanken, die den Was-Tun-Podcast und Dissens im Doppelpack mit einem monatlichen Beitrag unterstützen. Ihr macht kritische und unabhängige Medienarbeit möglich. Falls du noch nicht dabei kannst du das jetzt mit ein paar Klicks auf den Link in den Show Notes ändern. Schon ab 3€ im Monat bist du dabei und ermöglichst damit weiterhin unsere Arbeit. Vielen Dank und viel Spaß beim Weiterhören!

Valentin & Inken: Okay, to New York and to your practice in the campaign, we were wondering what your experience campaigning for the Ramandani at the doorstep was. Do you feel the total atmosphere or what is it that people are most interested in?

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, so, well, I guess first we should say, think like politics, especially municipal politics is often like hyper local. So I have canvas almost entirely. have canvassed a little bit in Brooklyn as well, but for the most part, I canvas in the neighborhood where I live, which is in Western Queens in sunny side. It's a part of what's

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: like colloquially referred to as the commie corridor because it's the it's this strip of of Brooklyn and Queens that is like the most left wing part of the city. I think there's different reasons why that's the case in Brooklyn. It's a lot of people like a lot of young people, a lot of people who move here from other parts of the country in my neighborhood. It's I think mostly immigrants and working class people who just are amiable to like left-wing populism. Maybe in part because the places they come from or they're like, there's a lot of people here from Bangladesh, from Turkey, from Ecuador, from Columbia, you know, places, these are people who are like nurses and construction workers and teachers, so people whose like personal interests for some reason are like more oriented towards that brand of politics. So my experiences on the door are usually pretty amiable. Earlier in the campaign, it was a lot of just like establishing who Zoran was because maybe people had seen a video on social media or maybe if they were older, they said, my... daughter is always talking about this guy. This is the guy that my daughter's always talking about. So, you know, sometimes it's just familiarizing them with the candidate and reminding them when to vote or reminding them to register to vote. That's a lot of it. A lot of it is knocking on doors and no one's home and you like leave a piece of literature. Sometimes

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: People have very particular issues or subjects they want to talk about. I think because I'm their neighbor and I'm there in person to like talk to them about politics. They'll want to say like, well, what is Zoran's position on? You know, there was a, when I was canvassing earlier this year, there had been a young woman who was like stabbed to death near the subway. So people were asking about that. Like what is his policy towards policing? What is his policy towards youth crime? You know, what is policy on guns? Does he want to defund the police? So these are like issues that people are focused on because there's some like hyper and at times like hyper local reason why they're concerned about that. And I will say like one of the another thing that's I think very effective about the campaign is

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: The campaign puts a tremendous amount of trust in the volunteers. So like I, when I signed up to canvas, I went to like my first canvas event and for the first 15 minutes or so, the head of of the can of that canvas basically just explained to us. These are the main talking points. These are the things people might ask you. Here's this app that you download in your phone that shows you. a map of the doors you're supposed to go to and you have the ability to then click on that address and type in notes and say whether the person was home, whether they were receptive, whether they told you to get out of here, whatever. Go, you know, go. And if they ask you question you don't know the answer, just tell them the reason why you're here doing the campaign or do the best you can, you know? So I

Valentin & Inken: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: In my understanding of what canvassing and door knocking was before I got involved, I guess I had assumed it was much more like official or much more like complicated to to speak on behalf of a political campaign. But maybe it's the particularity of this campaign. But I that's my understanding is there's just a tremendous amount of trust that's put in us. And then

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: For the most part, people have very simple and basic questions. And a lot of people kind of already have their mind made up and they just need that extra seeing their neighbor. the neighborhood where I live is all apartment buildings for the most part. So for me to get to their door, I've had to sneak into the building basically. I had to catch the door because someone was coming out.

Valentin & Inken: Hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: And then I go in or I like ring the doorbell and maybe they think I'm delivering the package and they just like buzz me in. and then I knock on the door and they're like cooking dinner and they're like, what, you know, and I'm like, I, I'm, I'm volunteering for the Zoran campaign. live in your neighborhood and I just want to make sure you've heard about him and want to hear what you think about him. I think it's, that is like so valuable, just like exerting that amount of effort and showing,

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. You

Russ Finkelstein: your neighbors that you care enough to do this as a volunteer, that that is like 90 % of the value, I think.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Yeah, maybe it's more like you think I would also always think that you need to be able to speak on behalf of a campaign, but actually you mainly need to be able to speak on behalf of yourself as a voter basically. But so I was wondering when you were telling us and thank you for the very detailed description of how you do it because I think that's most interesting to really find out how the door knocking works. Do you have special dates where like

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah. Yeah.

Valentin & Inken: there's like a campaign day and everybody's going out to the neighborhood or is it more like you have the app and you can do it in between whenever you have time to knock on his door?

Russ Finkelstein: There's canvases almost every day. Like if you go on Zon's website, you can go and see like where and when there's so it just depends on like what you want to do and what you feel comfortable with. I prefer canvassing in my own neighborhood. I just feel like it's more, it feels more like appropriate and it feels more, well, it's easier for me cause I don't have to like. travel to some place that's far away, but also I just feel like I have more of a right to be like advocating to my neighbors.

Valentin & Inken: And they really put a big emphasis on this ⁓ door knocking and canvassing effort, right? So for example, when I was preparing for this interview, I thought, maybe it would be nice to get a little bit of ⁓ Zoran Mamdani merch. And so I was doing some research on how to get the merch. out, it's really difficult and you have to join the movement to get the merch. So you're

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah. Yeah, I'll show

Valentin & Inken: I also saw videos by the Mamdani campaign where they said they really prefer you to go canvassing than them money because they have enough money and they can't even... Spend more money. So I find it interesting. Like, what do you think? is so... how did they manage to build such a big...

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah.

Valentin & Inken: volunteer movement behind their campaign.

Russ Finkelstein: I think the biggest reason or like the initial push was because of the DSA's membership. Like the DSA is this highly motivated, highly mobilized organization that has a lot of experience putting people on the street and tapping people to do that. Including myself, I was first canvassing for another DSA candidate last year before this race. So that's part of it. then I think just, yeah, the simplicity of the messaging and the ease, really a lot of it is just the ease with which you can sign up to Canvas and go, you know, it doesn't really involve that much training. There's canvases all over the city at all times of day. very simple to get involved. They make it very easy. Like the process of like getting onboarded is incredibly easy. So I think it's just, Yeah, taking advantage of the people who are energized and then making it easy for them. ⁓

Valentin & Inken: And by now it's one out of 100 New Yorkers who has been part of some...

Russ Finkelstein: That's what they say. say there's 80,000. I think I heard Bernie Sanders yesterday say there's volunteers in the city of 8 million people. It's pretty incredible, you know? Yeah.

Valentin & Inken: That's crazy. That's a crazy, crazy high number.

Russ Finkelstein: When I was canvassing for the Claire Valdez campaign last year. It was a smaller campaign and because I'm like a filmmaker and a journalist I volunteered spoke the her campaign staff and I said I have this camera equipment. I know how to edit You know, I'm happy to do whatever you need me to do But maybe my time would be better put to use making videos and she said, you know like What the DSA has found in its experience and research is the door knocking is actually more effective. Because if you think about it, if you're putting out a video on the internet, like it's going all over the world and the algorithm is going to show it to certain people and not other people. Maybe people in Germany or what, you know, like in the case of like a city race, like maybe people who don't live in, maybe they live nearby.

Valentin & Inken: and Germany.

Russ Finkelstein: Or maybe they're registered to vote somewhere else. But the involves knocking on specific doors. Those are the doors of people who are registered voters. And in some cases, they're people who are registered Democrats. So your time is really strategically focused on like speaking directly to the people who are certainly going to be able to vote in the election. Whereas if you take

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: If you're emphasizing, like for example, TV or radio advertisement, there's a lot of money being spent to reach people who don't necessarily have any say in the election. So think that's also like a part of the strategy is like emphasizing the door knocking in large part because of its targeted nature.

Valentin & Inken: It's also, think something which is really, really a big advantage for like candidates, which are really backed up by a huge number of people on the ground and, compared to people that mainly get a lot of funds and have a lot of money. Because even if you buy, I think I recently saw some kind of study that even if you buy a canvassing, it's not as good as, people that voluntarily can, which totally makes sense. It's a totally different experience.

Russ Finkelstein: I spoke to people on election day, was canvassing on the primary, and I spoke to people that were handing out literature for Andrew Cuomo, and they told me that they were voting for Zoran. Yeah, because they're just getting a paycheck. Maybe someone's checking on them and just making sure that they're handing out the flyers, but there's ideological incentive for them to like...

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Seriously.

Russ Finkelstein: do any like to advocate anything other than to collect their paycheck. So yeah, like they'll even tell you like I'm here doing this for money. Like I support the other candidates crazy.

Valentin & Inken: Maybe they hide some Zoran flyers underneath the chroma ones.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah.

Valentin & Inken: New York City city with the second largest Jewish population in the world. the whole Israel subject really matters to many New Yorkers. And there have also been many attempts to discard Zoran on these by weaponizing his position ⁓ on Israel and Gaza. ⁓ to discredit him.

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, I'm Jewish and I grew up Jewish. I had my Bar Mitzvah in Israel, actually. And when I was 13 years old, the Bar Mitzvah is like this rite of passage where you, in the eyes of the Jewish community, you become an adult at that point. So I had my Bar Mitzvah in Israel, and my mom had, you know, at one point lived on a kibbutz. And I think like, Zionism was sort of just like the water that you swim in as an American Jew, at least of people of my generation. And so when I went to Israel, was, I was pretty young, but I remember sort of like feeling like the dynamic that I saw there was, wrong. it wasn't, there was something, there was a manipulation that I was being convinced to support. this military operation and system of oppression. And I was very perceptive of that as a young person. And it really like changed the way I thought about Israel. I think like growing up, I was very into like punk music and hardcore music. And that was sort of my entry point into left-wing politics. And I was exposed to a lot of ideas that were highly critical of Israel. So that has always sort of been my perspective, you know, since I was young. But I think, yeah, like, especially for people who are older, there's this established, like, hegemonic viewpoint about the US and Israel in the United States, and it's been proliferated on both sides of the political spectrum. The Democratic Party and the Republican Party have a consensus that the U.S. must always support and defend Israel. And I've always felt like there's a lot wrong with that, but I never imagined, and I did think that eventually things would change, but I don't think anything would have prepared me for how rapidly that dynamic has shifted in the last two years now. And New York is like the U S is capital of Jewish life. And even like my own family, like my great grandparents came here, you know, after the first world war, from Germany and Poland and Russia and Ukraine. And like, I think, you know, people, my parents' generation also growing up in the guise of the cold war had this. understanding of Israel as this like righteous democracy and this like hostile part of the world that like is somehow backed by the Soviet Union. So I think that's also like a part of this consensus. I think like what we've seen in the campaign is even among American Jews, there's a generational divide where people who are basically like millennials and younger have a completely different perspective on the the conflict than even people my brother or sister's age who are like a little bit older than me. So I think because the Biden administration was so complicit in the genocide in Gaza and facilitating it and perpetuating it, there's so much anger among people on the left of the political spectrum and even a lot of liberals, like even a lot of people who are not like

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: hardcore leftists were just very disgusted with the Biden administration's approach to Israel and then the Harris campaign's approach. I don't know how closely your listeners followed the Harris campaign, but there was, you know, a lot of interest in her maybe like breaking with the Biden ⁓ policy and saying that she would

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: stop sending weapons to Israel or something, you know? And she basically said, like, there's going to be no change. There's going to be no difference. And there was a group of people that started in Michigan who were like Arab Americans who were saying they weren't, they were Democrats, but they weren't going to support Harris in the primary. And, or they weren't going to support, you know, candidates who, who, who were backing Israel's war in Gaza.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: And lot of people say that like, these people who sat out and didn't vote for Harris were, you know, responsible for the election of Trump. But my point is, like, I think the timing of Zoran's campaign seized on a moment of frustration in our national politics and in our national leaders, where there was so much appetite for someone to take a righteous position. And I first was made aware of Zoran because I attended Jewish Voices for Peace. Jewish Voices for Peace is like a left-wing anti-Zionist Jewish organization. And I went to a protest in 2021 when I think there was also like some bombing, Israeli bombing in Gaza. I went to a protest then and Zoran had just been elected to the state legislature and he gave a speech. Now is like the first time I ever like saw or heard of Zoran. So I think like the right is sort of obsessed with making Zoran out to be some sort of a jihadist anti-Semite. And I think that at the same time, Zoran's political career comes from like the movement for Palestinian rights and justice. So both things are true at the same time. There's also some Like there's a bill that Zoran supported in the legislature that basically it's called not on our dime. And it basically says that like no New York state funding or resources should go to support Israel or the Israeli military. there is like a legitimate political reason why Israel should be like a part of the discussion. But I think there's also like a tremendous amount of weaponization of allegations of antisemitism. And by the way, like a lot of the times these allegations are like, targeted at Jews, you know, like you've seen this in Germany, like you see this here as well. Like, people who are not Jewish, accusing people who think like me of being anti-Semitic. It's like really crazy. This dynamic, but I think like Zoran has like a tremendous contingency of Jews and one of the key like.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: Things that happened in the primary was another one of the candidates in the primary. name is Brad Landers. He's Jewish and he's the comptroller of the city of New York right now and he endorsed Zoram. So like, I think that this like weaponization of antisemitism and the conflating of Jewishness and the state of Israel is an international phenomenon that's really dangerous. It's really dangerous for Jews to be honest, you know, because

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: Like this sort of framework makes it seem that all Jews are somehow like either responsible for Israel's crimes or have a duty to support Israel, which like would seem to create like a loyalty, like that we as Jews should have some loyalty and not like a loyalty to our own people or our own nation.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: which is like, this is a historic like dynamic that's played out for like centuries for Jews. So yeah, unfortunately that's being weaponized and leveraged in the race. But I think what Zoran has done with his campaign is really brave in terms of like saying things that a lot of us believe that break with this consensus. That's like a several generations established consensus support for Israel. And at the same time, he's been really smart and really pragmatic about how to build a winning coalition a lot of people who might even disagree with him about Israel. Yeah, so now that's what you've seen in the last couple of months is him sort of like, and a lot of my Palestinian friends from like the...

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm.

Russ Finkelstein: these movements that I'm a part of have now become a little bit more critical of Zoran because he said things that they sort of see as like conceding some of his position. But I try to remind them, the objective here is to win the mayor's office and establish the policies Zoran is running. Very few of which have to do with Israel.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Do you think, like, after all, even though the centrist or the right has tried to weaponize this issue so much against Zoran Mamdani, do you think that after all this issue maybe even helped gain more visibility in the election and even to address all the people that felt left behind by this political consensus around Israel for so long? So do you think this issue hurt him more or maybe helped him even to win and to rise to the occasion?

Russ Finkelstein: Yeah, it definitely helped him. And I think that like one of the things I would, one of the aspects of the campaign has been like so like successful, but also like really sort of like inspirational and sort of like moving to see is Zoran has essentially created or brought into the fold a new constituency that like previously was not really a force in New York politics, which is like South Asians. There's like a growing number of people from Bangladesh and New York. I don't know the numbers, but it's like one of the fastest growing immigrant groups in the city. And this is like a relatively new, like idea to like really target ⁓ Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and like Muslims, South Asians. Zoran has that like legitimacy with them because that's his own like ethnic and religious. identity. So like it was one of the groups that the campaign targeted from like way going back to last year was going to the mosques of Bangladeshi people speaking at their mosque speaking with the imams and like those are people who are among the most marginalized and oppressed people in New York going back to 9-11 you know like Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have like endured so much oppression and like marginalization and have been almost completely cut out of like the American political system. So this was like a tremendous innovation. And I think that his positions on Israel and Gaza definitely helped him to mobilize those people.

Valentin & Inken: Yeah, it's very interesting. It's also, I think you could also already see last year in the Harris campaign that slowly like her Indian heritage was kind of being used a little more to appeal to South Asian voters. But I think it will be like just also as a sign of visibility of these voter blocks, a very powerful sign if Zora Mandani will actually really be the mayor of New York. It's, I think, will be very, very big step. However, so talking about him being the mayor of New York, we are looking at now at a lot of promises that he makes on the campaign trail, especially for working class people and for low income folks. But what do you think or like how optimistic are you that Mamdani can actually deliver once in office? Also regarding the fact that Donald Trump has already said that if Zoram Amdani will win, he will freeze federal funds for New York.

Russ Finkelstein: It's going to be like a very big fight. I think that there are certain programs, like for example, I mentioned the city run grocery stores. Those should be like, that should be pretty easy to implement. Some of the more ambitious projects, especially like the ones that involve like coordination with the state, know, like freezing the rent, I think should also be relatively easy. compared to, I mean, not like super easy, but when you compare it to like, for example, the things that involve like taxes, like ⁓ the free childcare is gonna involve implementing taxes that will probably have to involve the state government. One of the reasons why hopeful is I've seen the Zoran campaign and Zoran as a candidate try to build His coalition and he's won the endorsement, for example, now of New York's governor. There's a congressman who's the speaker of the house of representatives, the national lower house of Congress, who has not endorsed Zoran. The senators of New York state have not endorsed Zoran. That's concerning. Or to be honest, I think it's concerning for the democratic establishment, you know, that they're sort of like go like standing against this new coalition led by young people and the left. but Zoran has been effective in, as I said, winning over people like Brad Lander, who's now the the comptroller. He's in charge of like finances within the city's government. the governor, Kathy Hokel has now endorsed Zoran. And I think A lot of how effective he is, is going to come down to how much, how much power he can consolidate in a coalition that involves centrists and it involves people in the state and federal government. I don't think there's any sign that cooperating or giving Trump like pieces of what he wants is productive. Like it didn't help. It hasn't helped the city of Washington, DC, where like the mayor has been completely like overrun with the national guard. I think the best approach to dealing with Donald Trump is like a more adversarial approach and standing up to him and sort of like not backing down and not cowering and trying to like renegotiate some deal. So I think. It's going to involve a continued amount of engagement from people who support the campaign to continue to be involved and to continue to pressure local and state politicians in order to push through some of these objectives. I think there's also, my experience as a New Yorker is watching, for example, Bill de Blasio, who was also a progressive mayor of New York. be frustrated with his administration. And I think a lot of that frustration was just unforeseen conflicts. know, like in his case, it was the police, like the police waged a war against him when he was the mayor and it made his administration incredibly difficult. And he made some other stupid mistakes. Like he just didn't like waking up early and he was late once to the 9-11 memorial and these people got super offended.

Valentin & Inken: Mm-hmm. Russ Finkelstein (1:00:04) You know, like I think Zoran has proven really dedicated to his work and he is very willing and ready to form coalitions. And so I, I'm not, I can't like stay with a hundred percent certainty he's going to accomplish every single thing that he's running on. But I do think he's, he's, has the right mindset in terms of achieving those things. Valentin (1:00:35) Du hörst den sprechen heute mit dem Journalisten und Aktivisten Russ wie Kampagne von Zora Mamdani in New York so erfolgreich geworden ist. wenn dir gefällt, was du hörst und du Freunde hast, die das Thema auch interessiert, Dann klick doch jetzt auf den Teilen-Button in deinem Podcatcher und schick in die Folge. Und jetzt viel Spaß beim Weiterhören. Valentin & Inken (1:00:55) yeah. Russ Finkelstein (1:00:56) and let me tell you, I have a friend who's a real estate reporter, you know, cause I went to journalism school. work as a journalist and my friend is constantly talking to these real estate developers and some of them are like really wealthy and really powerful. they're, they're the people who were saying like Zoran Mamdani is a communist and he's going to destroy the city. And if he becomes the mayor, all the rich people are going to leave and the city is going to collapse. Cause there's going to be no money from taxing all these businesses and stuff. Valentin & Inken (1:01:01) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Russ Finkelstein (1:01:22) So many of these people, these real estate developers who are like saying this stuff are now like taking meetings with Zoran and like trying to figure out like, okay, he's going to be the mayor. Like what do we, like, what can we do together? Like, how can we like move things forward? Because these, those people, if anything, they're, they're pragmatists as well, you know? Valentin & Inken (1:01:36) You Yes, it's very remarkable what's happening in New York City right now. And you've already talked about also people from the Democratic endorsing Mamdani now. And I was just wondering what you think if this, like Azura Mamdani is going to be voted into office, if that would also indicate a shift in the Democratic Party, which just right now feels very... insecure and leaderless and it's kind of unclear where it's going to go? Or is it a very, would you think it's more like an isolated New York City incident? Russ Finkelstein (1:02:12) you know, I think you have to plot this as a moment as a plot point on a graph of a movement, you know, and Zoran very much comes from this movement. He's not an anomaly that came out of nowhere. Zoran came out of the DSA. He came out of the Bernie 2015 primary race. That was his entry into politics, like so many of us. And I think It would mark like, like the high point so far of this, of this new energized left, you know? and so I think he's already like changing the national conversation because New York is such a, it's the biggest city in the country. It's so highly visible and he's such an effective communicator. He's already sort of captivated the attention of the national political discourse and rhetoric. And I think it's going to be telling what happens next year. They have what we call the midterm elections, which is like the congressional election that happens in the off year when it's not a presidential race. It'll be telling to see like how many more seats the left picks up or, you know, like that's when the real discussion starts about who the democratic candidates are for the next presidential race. So you already hear people talking about this and whether or not AOC should run for president in 2028. I have my own opinions about that, but I definitely see Zoran's successes even so far as like definitely inserted into this discussion. like, I think in that context, it's always important. And I always feel like emphasizing the fact that what is to be learned from Zoran's success is not simply like the tactics or his ability to communicate effectively or his ability to make really good social media videos, which I think is the lesson that a lot of the democratic establishment wants to take. want to say, if we get like any centrist young person who is going to take money from the Israel lobby and they're going to take money from the pharmaceutical industry and the insurance companies. That's the way that democratic campaigns usually run. And we'll just make them younger and we'll make really good social media videos for them. That's, that's what we can do, right? Like we'll, take what Zoran did and we'll, and we'll do it for someone who thinks like us. And I think it's important to like emphasize and remind people. What's at the center of the movement that Zoran is a part of and what's at the center of his campaign is actually the policies. And so I hope and I think that that can increasingly be like a, established fact and that we're not like trying to debate whether it's like Zoran's age or it's his looks or it's his charisma that is same with AOC. You hear the same discussion with AOC. She's young, she's beautiful, she's a Latina, she's really good at social media. No, I mean, yes, those things are true, but it's really the things she stands for that motivates and inspires people. So I hope and think that that's a growing phenomenon. Valentin & Inken (1:05:05) Mm-hmm. Yeah, this brings us to our last question because in Berlin we're looking towards a major race next year Berlin has similar problems like New York City, I guess. The rents are really high. The city suffers a lot from gentrification and many Berliners also have the increasing feeling that the city doesn't really work for them anymore. So both parties, the Greens and the Left, are trying to win back the majority from the conservatives who are running Berlin right now. So the current sitting mayor is from the conservative party. So I wanted to ask you, Russ, whether you think that there are some lessons that we can learn from New York that Berliners, leftists from can learn from the Mandani campaign when thinking about how we can put forward populist economic policies that really speak to the everyday experience Berliners. Russ Finkelstein (1:06:18) Yeah, I mean, to me, the most important thing is, yeah, these finding the issues and finding the problems that the left is able to address and centering whatever the, whatever the proposals and campaigns are on those issues. I think, Doing that effectively and having like a coalition that is centered around the needs of working people and poor people is always going to be an effective strategy if, you know, it can effectively communicate and articulate and engage those constituencies. It's almost impossible to lose if you do that because there's a tremendous amount of us and not an increasingly fewer number. of people who have the money. So that's my advice, I guess, is like to, I don't know, like the particularities of Berlin and what it is that people there are like really concerned with, but I would find those issues that are making the lives of poor and working people difficult and try to see where you might be able to. help address some of those problems and center whatever campaigns you have on those issues. Valentin & Inken (1:07:28) Well, thank you. ⁓ Thank you very much for the whole interview and talk. It was very, very interesting to get some insights into the life right now in New York City and into the campaign of Zoram and Dani and your work at the doorstep and on the ground of that campaign. Thank you so much for visiting us in Was tun? Podcast. Russ Finkelstein (1:07:45) Of course, thanks for having me and best of luck with your election. Valentin & Inken (1:07:49) Thank you. Valentin (1:08:06) so, da sind wir wieder. Jetzt wieder auf Deutsch und wie nach jeder Folge sitzen Ingen und ich jetzt noch zusammen und überlegen noch mal gemeinsam, was für uns denn so die wichtigsten Punkte waren aus dem Gespräch und was wir auch denken, was so die Takeaways aus dem Gespräch mit Russ für strategische Kampagnenarbeit, politische Strategie insgesamt. Was denkst du denn? Was liegt oben auf bei bei der Frage, was wir lernen können aus der Mamdani-Kampagne in New York? der bei mir noch oben aufliegt, der speist sich gar nicht direkt aus dem Gespräch, sondern ist vielleicht eher noch mal so eine die ich im Kopf behalten würde, wenn ich über diese Wahlen in den USA nachdenke, nämlich einfach noch mal drauf zu gucken, auch dass natürlich das Wahlsystem ein bisschen anders ist als hier, also dass die da in einem Mehrheitswahlsystem abstimmen. dass New York in den letzten zehn Jahren von demokratischen Bürgermeistern regiert wurde und dass es ziemlich wahrscheinlich ist, dass es in dieser Wahl auch so ist. Und deshalb eigentlich auch Primary eigentlich die große Wahl war und die überraschende Wahl. Und dann ist aber irgendwie viele Wendungen auch innerhalb der Geschichte gab, nämlich das ganz liberale oder neoliberale Establishment doch so besorgt war über diesen Democratic Socialist, dass sich Andrew Cuomo, ja sozusagen ehemaliger Gouverneur, sich entschieden hat, auch noch zu kandidieren als Das ist total, also passiert schon hin und wieder mal, aber es ist ungewöhnlich und es ist einfach sehr anders, als es im deutschen System laufen würde. Auch diese krasse Personalisierung. Das kennt man natürlich schon. Natürlich geht es auch in Berlin darum, wer nächster Oberbürgermeister oder nächste Oberbürgermeisterin der Stadt es ist schon nochmal bisschen stärker, glaube ich, in diesen Wahlen. Und was ich da noch mitnehmen würde, ist die besondere Rolle der Democratic Socialists of America. dass die am Anfang schon, dass die sich ziemlich früher entschieden haben, Mardani zu endorsen, also zu unterstützen bei der Wahl. und dann ihr ganzes Netzwerk aus UnterstützerInnen dahinter geworfen haben, die auch Erfahrungen mit Haustürwahl kämpfen das hat mich ein bisschen auch erinnert an die Kampagne der Linkspartei in Berlin zur Bundestagswahl. Da haben wir auch im Podcast ziemlich ausführlich darüber dass da viele Organisationen, die nicht die Linkspartei waren, sondern zum Beispiel die interventionistische Linke oder Oder der SDS oder Studis gegen rechts. Dass es da viele andere Organisationen gab, die schon Erfahrung hatten mit Haus für Wahlkämpfen, die dann entschieden haben, in dem Fall halt die Partei und nicht einen Kandidaten, aber in Neukölln ja zum Beispiel mit Fyrat Kutschak schon stark auch einen Kandidaten zu unterstützen. dass das dann halt wirklich einen krassen Ausschlag geben kann. Ja, das stimmt. vielleicht noch mal zu deinem ersten Punkt, so die Unterschiede zwischen dem System in den USA oder in New York und unserem Wahlsystem hier in Da gibt es natürlich ganz erhebliche. Ich glaube auch, in Deutschland sind ja immer da mauscheln die Parteien vielmehr selbst so bisschen aus, wen sie ins Rennen schicken. Und dann können am Ende die Wählerinnen entscheiden, wen sie dann am Ende an der Wahlurne für wen sie stimmen. Und in den USA gibt es eben durch diese Primaries immer schon die Vorwahlkämpfe, wo letztendlich alle Leute, die registrierte Demokraten sind, und das ist eben ein bisschen was anderes als wirklich Parteimitglieder in da in dieser ersten Wahl schon mal sehr, sehr viele über den Kandidaten ab. Und dadurch kommt es eben auch dazu, dass die Kandidaten so im Vordergrund stehen und der Wahlkampf so personalisiert da Demokraten gegen Republikaner, gegen andere Parteien stehen, sondern da stehen dann unterschiedliche demokratische Kandidaten man wählt dann praktisch schon sehr stark den Kandidaten, auch wenn man die Partei vielleicht total kritisch sieht. Und in Deutschland, wenn man jetzt fragen würde, warum die Leute SPD oder CDU oder auch die Grünen wählen, dann kommt oft die Partei wahrscheinlich sogar zuerst. Und die Kandidaten sind dann so nachgelagert, dass wenn der Kandidat mal gar nicht passt, dann wählt man deswegen den Kandidaten nicht. gibt manchmal auch Leute, die so an den Rändern dann ein paar Leute noch rüberziehen, weil die sagen, ja, ich die Grünen immer jetzt haben sie einen Kandidaten, den ich wirklich gut finde. Und dann kippe ich praktisch bei diesem Mal rüber. insgesamt spielen die Kandidaten in Deutschland eine weniger große Rolle. Das stimmt natürlich. Ja, und das ist auch irgendwie ganz interessant, weil diese Vorwahlkämpfe da ja auch so bisschen die Funktion haben, auch Leute, die keine guten Wahlkämpfer sind, schon mal auszusieben. dadurch, dass sich sozusagen alle innerparteilich schon mal als Personen auch so bewähren lernen die natürlich total viel. Also können sie dann oft im Campagning oder können sie Wahlkampf dann oft in den richtigen Wahlkämpfen schon besser? Und gleichzeitig sorgt es halt so bisschen dafür, auch dass die Leute, die das gar nicht können, auf jeden Fall in den Primaries auch nicht gewinnen. Das war zum Beispiel auch so bisschen der Grund, warum es Leute gab, die vor der letzten Präsidentschaftswahl meinten, eigentlich wäre es gut gewesen, Primaries zu haben, auch Kamala Harris sozusagen diese Schule durchlaufen muss. Ja, und man vielleicht eben auch auf Talente stößt, die man vorher nicht so auf dem Schirm hatte. Das ist ja jetzt praktisch bei Mamdani auch ein super Beispiel dafür, wie das gehen kann. Valentin, was ist denn bei dir noch so hängen geblieben? ich finde auf jeden Fall bei der Mamdani-Kampagne sehr interessant, einfach diese Anti-Establishment-Karte mutig auszuspielen. Mamdani in den ersten Umfragen, nachdem er seine Kandidatur verkündet hatte, hatten glaube ich um die ein Prozent überhaupt nur angegeben, ihn stimmen zu wollen. Jemand, den viele gar nicht kannten. Er war auch ein recht unbekannter Politiker zu dem Zeitpunkt. Und dass der aber nicht dann versucht hat, das so zu kaschieren. Und irgendwie sich zu profilieren als, ich bin doch eigentlich ganz erfahren und so weiter. Sondern eigentlich genau das zur Marke gemacht hat. Er hat gesagt, genau das ist das, worum es geht. Dass alle Leute, die praktisch Teil von diesem Establishment sind, auch Teil des Problems sind. Und ich komme hier ... als jemand, der von draußen kommt. Und das ist genau der Grund, warum Leute mich wählen sollten. Und es gab ja in dem wo er angetreten ist, noch mal gegen Andrew Cuomo und den Kandidaten eben auch noch mal diesen Punkt, er, da hatten wir ja auch mit Russ kurz drüber Cuomo Mondani angegriffen hat und eben gesagt hat, so, sie haben überhaupt keine Erfahrung. Das ist kein den man dann im Tagesgeschäft erst lernt, sondern das ist was, da braucht man super viel politische wie man mutig so eine Anti-Establishment-Karte im Wahlkampf auch spielen kann und dass es funktionieren kann. Das finde ich auf jeden Fall auch irgendwie auch eine risikoreiche Strategie, aber offensichtlich scheint es ja total gut aufzugehen. Und ich finde, was damit gut zusammenpasst, auch, er sehr offensiv Menschen auch zielt, die in letzten Präsidentschaftswahl Trump gewählt Und es gibt auch so Videos von ihm, wo er die am Anfang, so ungefähr vor einem Jahr Menschen auf der Straße interviewt, die Trump gewählt haben und auch fragt, warum. Und eigentlich klar wird, für viele sind ausschlaggebende Gründe, die ökonomische Situation und die Inflation und dass Sachen so teuer geworden Und da schließt er halt dann genau in diese Alltagserfahrung von vielen Menschen halt mit den vier Kernforderungen an. mit den free kostenloser öffentlicher Nahverkehr. den kostenlosen kostenloser Kinderbetreuung in dem Free-to-Rent, also der Begrenzung von Mieten in Häusern oder Wohnungen, die kommunal verwaltet werden und zuletzt den öffentlichen einfach wirklich interessante Forderungen, ich, weil die einerseits scheint es so ein bisschen, als würden sie auf der Hand liegen, aber ich finde sie ... dann doch ganz schön innovativ im politischen Betrieb, wie genau sie sozusagen an die Alltagserfahrungen von Menschen anschließen, die einfach unter diesen hohen Preisen total leiden oder Probleme haben, arbeiten zu gehen, weil ihre Kinder nicht betreut werden. Ja, also ich finde, da ist es nochmal wichtig, den Punkt zu machen. Also es gibt jetzt ja, denke ich, alle Leute, die Volkswirtschaftslehre studiert haben, denken sich jetzt, ⁓ geil, endlich können wir mal praktisch Inhalte und unsere Forderungen aufs Plakat schreiben. die MAMDANI-Kampagne zeigt, mit Wirtschaftspolitik gewinnt man Wahlen. Achtung, liebe Hörerinnen und Hörer, das ist hier nicht das Learning. Sondern das, praktisch die Forderung von MAMDANI so besonders macht, ist eben dieses Spannungsfeld aus ökonomischen Forderungen und der Alltagserfahrung, wie Ingen eben gerade schon gesagt hat. eben wirklich zu gucken, ökonomische Forderungen so einen Common Sense abholen. Und das sind dann nicht die abstrakten Wirtschaftspolitischen Forderungen, zu zu Finanzmarkt, Transaktionssteuer, zu alles wahnsinnig wichtige die wir politisch unbedingt brauchen, die aber eben zu weit weg sind von der Alltagserfahrung der Menschen, damit praktisch Leute abzuholen und Leute zu mobilisieren. Mamdani macht eben was ganz anderes, sondern er guckt praktisch, wo kommen die Leute konkret in ihrem Alltag in Kontakt mit ökonomischen Themen und wie kann ich meine Forderungen so an diese Alltagserfahrungen dass man eben VWL studiert haben muss, zu verstehen, worum es da geht und ob das gut oder schlecht ist. Ich muss da mal wieder an die Infamous-Folge mit Anatschenka Osario denken. Hab's jetzt lange nicht mehr genannt. Aber da hat sie, erinnere ich mich gerade dran, dass sie da sehr explizit gesagt hat auch, dass Linke immer gerne sagen, wir sind für höhere Steuern, und das dann wie so Wert an sich ist. Und dass sie da sehr stark gemacht hat, nee, man muss sagen, wofür man halt die höheren Steuern braucht. Und das sind ja sozusagen alle, diese Forderungen sind ganz schön teuer, man ehrlicherweise sagen. Und natürlich wird man dafür das Geld irgendwo herholen müssen. Das wird aber nicht in den Vordergrund gestellt, sondern im Vordergrund steht wirklich, was working class people davon haben oder was sozusagen deren Leben konkret verbessern wird. Eine andere Sache, die ich eben noch gedacht habe mit dem Anti-Establishment-Punkt, den Valentin gemacht hat, das finde ich irgendwie auch schon fast bisschen verrückt, dass klare ökonomische Forderungen aufzustellen eigentlich schon fast Anti-Establishment ist, weil sich das sonst einfach niemand mehr traut und wie Ross ja auch gesagt hat, alle sonst immer in dieser im Grunde Gerichtssprache schon fast sprechen, möglichst abgesichert zu sein, dass sie nicht irgendwas sagen könnten, was am Ende gar nicht ganz genauso möglich Oder was irgendwie verbessert werden könnte. da finde ich irgendwie interessant, dass er dadurch ja fast so bisschen genau wie ein Anti-Establishment-Kandidat wirkt. Und da musste ich eine Analyse noch mal denken von dem Politikwissenschaftler Philipp Mahno, die ich nach der Bundestagswahl im Spiegel gelesen da beschreibt, dass sich diejenigen, die sich als liberale Mitte oder Mainstream verstehen, eigentlich aktuell immer weniger werden, sondern dass sich dagegen halt auf der rechten Seite so eine illiberaler Populismus bildet. sowohl in gesellschaftlichen als auch in wirtschaftlichen Fragen nicht mehr für Liberalisierung sind, also für Freiheit sind, so wie das die selbst proklamierte Mitte ist, sondern die in beiden Richtungen eigentlich illiberal wird, also die sowohl in Verteilungsfragen als auch in gesellschaftlichen eigentlich starke Grenzen und starke Bestimmungen einziehen möchte. Also sowas wie auch die Tollpolitik oder die starke Wirtschaftssteuerung, die Trump jetzt in den USA Und da finde ich interessant, dass die linken Sozialisten jetzt gerade in den USA, das ist Art Mittelweg gehen. Also dass sie im wirtschaftlichen Bereich stark auf Eingriffe und auf staatliche Bestimmung auch von bestimmten wirtschaftlichen Faktoren, was Preise angeht, Mietpreise angeht oder die Preise oder halt das kostenlose von Kindertagesstätten oder halt kostenlosen öffentlichen Nahverkehr und gleichzeitig aber natürlich auf gesellschaftlichen Ebene sehr freiheitlich orientiert bleiben, also da wenig Vorschriften machen wollen, uns eher darum geht, alle zusammenzufassen, also auch Muslime und Christen jetzt zum Beispiel in New York oder die Jewish Community und Leute, die sich für Gaza einsetzen. Und dass da aber nicht mehr so stark auf Identität gesetzt wird. Sondern dass es darum geht, Narrativ zu schaffen, was alle in ihren ökonomischen Lebensrealitäten anspricht. Mhm. Das finde ich eine total interessante These, Inken. Tatsächlich auch zu schauen, ... Das Phänomen Mamdani wird ja auch immer wieder so benannt. Einerseits die Trump-Voter, die dann bereit sind, für Mamdani zu stimmen. Aber auch die politisch Entfremdeten zwar sagen, wir sind Linke, aber wir können eigentlich, wir gehen gar nicht mehr zur Wahl, weil es ist egal, ob man Demokraten oder Republikaner wählt, alle wollen Waffen nach Israel schicken und Gaza wegbomben. diese Kampagne ein Stück weit einen neuen politischen Horizont eröffnet. der es ermöglicht, beide Gruppen irgendwie wieder zumindest in Teilen abzuholen und wie so eine Art neue politische Konfliktlinie oder Polarisierung aufmacht, die nochmal neu konfiguriert ist als die klassischen Wählerblocks, die wir so kennen, wie wir das so sonst beschreiben. Valentin (1:21:48) ein Aspekt, der die Mamdani-Kampagne auf jeden Fall auch auszeichnet. Und Mamdani sagt das auch irgendwo mal in einem nicht reicht, wenn progressive Parteien oder Kandidaten nicht nur nicht verlieren wollen und ihre Forderungen eben irgendwie so formulieren, dass es möglichst nicht verhetzbar, möglichst juristisch wasserdicht ist und so sondern dass man eben gewinnen wollen muss. Und das geht dadurch, dass man sich eben auch was traut und dass man eben die eigenen Forderungen auch ein Stück weit ja in der Alltagssprache übersetzt, die einfach verständlich ist und dann vielleicht nicht komplett wasserdicht wird, zum Beispiel ja dieses Einfrieren der eben in Wirklichkeit nicht so allgemein. kommen wird, wie die Forderung vermuten lässt, sondern dass eben vor allem diese Sozialwohnungen geht, die eben der Stadt wir setzen uns dafür ein, dass die Mieten in den stadteigenen Sozialwohnungen ab dem Jahr nicht mehr steigen können, sagt man eben halt Freeze the Rent und macht eben da ja ein bisschen allgemeineren Punkt. Das fand noch so ein. weiterer Aspekt, der die Kampagne für mich sehr auszeichnet. Dieses nicht nur nicht verlieren wollen, sondern eben bold sein und reingehen und sagen, wir wollen gewinnen. Ja, das ist ja, finde ich auch so was, was noch mal so bisschen reinspielt in so mit politischen Gewissheiten brechen. mit diesem Gefühl von zum Beispiel jetzt halt, man muss immer alles total absichern oder alles ist verhetzbar und deswegen muss man super vorsichtig sein, was man irgendwo sagt. Da ist Mammdania einfach sehr anders unterwegs. Und das gilt auch für die Position zu im deutschen Diskurs kennt man das ja auch, dass da sehr lange kaum was anderes sagbar war als totale Und das ist halt im US-Diskurs. Zum Teil ein bisschen anders, aber zum Teil auch so ähnlich. Und dass aber ein Bürgermeisterkandidat sich so klar an die Seite von Gaza stellt und auch so sehr gegen die demokratische Politik unter Biden und stellt, was Waffenlieferungen angeht an Israel und die Unterstützung des Staats Israel in der Form und in der Regierung jetzt unter Benjamin Netanyahu und mit dem konkreten Ankieren im Kriegsgebiet in Gaza. Das ist schon echt ungewöhnlich und natürlich auch ein hohes politisches Risiko. Ja, ich finde da ganz interessant, man merkt ja an der Kampagne, dass es eigentlich eine totale Nachfrage gab, auch nach dieser Position. Viele Leute haben sich total im Fremdnet gefühlt, weil sie das Gefühl hatten, das, wir denken, das wird da irgendwie gar nicht repräsentiert, obwohl die Politik uns eigentlich repräsentieren Und da, finde ich, zeigt die Mamdani-Kampagne es so eine Art Selbstzensur zum Teil auch gibt. im politischen Feld, dass diese Konsense ebenso funktionieren, dass sie eben dann gar nicht mehr durchlässig sind entwickeln sich so Gewissheiten, wie zum Beispiel mit einer Gaza-solidarischen Position in Stadt mit der zweitgrößten jüdischen Bevölkerung weltweit kann man keine Wahlen gewinnen, wenn man kritisch gegenüber Israel ist. Und dann macht er das und zeigt das Dann bricht er zwar mit diesem politischen Konsens im politischen Feld, aber gleichzeitig zeigt er damit halt, die Bevölkerung ist wo ganz anders die politischen Repräsentanten, die sich da eben so selbstreferenzär abgekoppelt haben, Stückweit in ihren Sprechpositionen. Ja, da merkt man dann zum Teil auch, dass man auch politisch manchmal echt Fehlannahmen hat über die Einstellung von Bevölkerungsgruppen. Also, dass man davon ausgeht, nur weil ... Die Menschen, jüdisch sind sie für das Verhalten des Staates Israel gerade. Das ist ja auch eine totale Fehlannahme Und da lohnt es sich manchmal auch wirklich, diese Risiken einzugehen. Gerade wenn man einfach wirklich auch persönlich dafür steht. Ja. Und ich finde dann aber auch interessant, also einerseits sind sie eben so sehr bold und stark in ihren Forderungen oder auch klar in Positionen zu Gaza und Israel. gleichzeitig betont man Dani dann eben auch immer wieder total stark, naja, ist auch irgendwie klar, dass es Leute geben wird, die in einzelnen Positionen nicht mit uns übereinstimmen und uns trotzdem wählen sollten, weil sie sagen, unterm Strich in drei Forderungen kann ich zustimmen und bei der vierten vielleicht nicht, aber es ist trotzdem irgendwie ein guter Deal für mich. Und da gibt's auch eine Stelle in der Talkshow bei Stephen Colbert, wo man eben auch sagt, if you agree with me on nine out of twelve policies, vote for me. If you agree on twelve out of twelve, go see a psychiatrist. Also, so, geh zur Therapie, wenn du alles genauso siehst wie ich, weil es liegt ein Stück weit in der Natur der Sache, dass man halt auch bei ein paar Sachen unterschiedlicher Meinung ist. Das fand ich irgendwie auch ... Auch interessant für jemanden, der die radikalen Forderungen so stark nach vorne stellt, da dann eben auch super pragmatisch zu sein und den Leuten auch zu sagen, ihr müsst nicht sein wie ich, sondern entscheidet doch für euch, ob das unterm Strich passt oder nicht. Das fand ich auch irgendwie so ganz nice. Aber ihr merkt an dem Beispiel, I'm deep down in the rabbit hole. Vielleicht noch einen letzten oder vorletzten Punkt, der da für mich gut Das ist ja irgendwie eine ziemlich lockere Haltung auch, zum Teil zu Politik und Wahlkampf sagen zu können, ihr müsst mit mir nicht in allen Fragen übereinstimmen und dann auch so einen Witz darüber zu machen, wie jetzt mit dem See-up-Psychiatrist. Und ich finde, das zeichnet diese Kampagne auch total aus. Und das finde ich super interessant, dass Mamdani einfach in allen Auftritten, wo man ihn sieht, die ganze Zeit ultrafreundlich ist, ganz, ganz viel lächelt und einfach super sympathisch ist. Und halt auch mit den Menschen, die nicht seiner Meinung sind. das gerade auch bei den Videos, in denen er durch New York läuft und mit den Menschen spricht, taucht es auch auf, dass Leute ihm sagen, sie werden ihn nicht wählen oder sie finden welche von seinen Positionen blöd. Und er dann sagt auch, das ist okay. Manchmal auch den Leuten vielleicht noch was anderes anbietet oder bisschen mit ihnen spricht, aber immer die Freundlichkeit und die Nahbarkeit irgendwie so im Vordergrund steht. Und das finde ich echt besonders, vor allem noch mal in Kombination. mit den radikalen Forderungen. Weil ich finde oft, wenn man auf unserer Seite oder wenn man Deutschland so mit radikalen Positionen konfrontiert ist, dann ist alles immer sehr schnell, sehr ernst, sehr kämpferisch und wütend auf alle anderen, die es anders da ist das, finde ich, ein totaler zu sagen, wir haben eine ganz klare Position, wir wollen für die auch gewählt werden, wir wollen ja noch umsetzen, aber mit so einer radikalen Freundlichkeit zu vertreten. Und bei dem Begriff merkte ich schon, dass ich noch mal an die Linksparteifolge denken musste. Wo wir auch drüber gesprochen haben, dass ja Ines Schwertner beim letzten Parteitag oder vorletzten vielleicht jetzt schon am Parteitag der der Partei so radikale Freundlichkeit verordnet hat. Genau, ich finde, bei der Linken muss man vielleicht noch ein bisschen mehr gucken, ob sich das genauso umsetzt. Da, finde ich, gibt es auch Videos, wo man das Gefühl, wo man eher Empörung als Freundlichkeit und Gewinn, Menschengewinn sieht. Aber ... Das finde ich auf jeden Fall als politische Strategie irgendwie auch total interessant. Wir brauchen das freundliche Gesicht des Sozialismus. Ja. So ist es. Und was, finde ich, noch meinen letzten Punkt, damit noch jetzt die Bereitschaft von Mamdani, in Kooperation oder zumindest Kommunikation mit Leuten zu gehen, die auf einer anderen politischen Seite stehen. Also am Anfang im Vorwahlkampf war, glaube ich, total wichtig, diese sozialistischen Forderungen so klar zu machen, auch so klar zu machen, wofür er und damit ganz viele Leute zu überzeugen. Aktuell sieht man aber auch, dass er zum Beispiel als bekennender Muslim wurde er gerade von christlichen, geistlichen unterstützt, die dann auch für ihn gebetet haben. So Social Media Video sieht man das Das war ja auch noch bisschen normaler als hier, dass Religion so eine große Rolle Oder aber auch, dass er jetzt halt auch mit Menschen aus dem Immobilienlobby gesprochen hat. Ich finde, ist alles in so Ton gehalten, wo man nicht das Gefühl hat, übernimmt deren Forderungen oder knickt jetzt irgendwie ein oder so. Aber er ist erst mal bereit, einem zu sprechen. das ist ja, was das Russ auch im Gespräch noch mal so betont hat, dass das halt total zentral ist, auch in einer Stadt wie New York, die eigentlich wie so bisschen als gilt. Dass man halt mit allen ins Gespräch geht und dann versucht, Allianzen zu knüpfen, dass er auch glaubt, dass Sondra Mandani dafür genau die richtige Person ist. Unregelbar ist ein gutes Stichwort. Es ist auch noch mal die Überleitung zu Berlin, wo wir im nächsten Jahr dann eben wieder Bürgermeisterwahlen auch anstehen. Und die Frage die progressiven Parteien, also ob die Grünen, ob die das Rathaus möglicherweise gewinnen können und die konservative Regierung ablösen in Das finde ich irgendwie auch auf jeden Fall noch mal so der Hintergrund für mich, vor dem es eben auch sehr interessant finde, den Wahlkampf dort zu verfolgen und sich genau man da von Mandany vielleicht auch für Berlin lernen kann. In diesem Sinne, ich glaube, das war es vielleicht mit der Nachbesprechung. Wir hoffen es hat euch gefallen und ihr konntet einiges mitnehmen. Bleibt uns gewogen, wenn es beim nächsten Mal wieder heißt... Was tun? Das war der Was tun Podcast. Konzept und Redaktion Inken Bährmann und Valentin Ißen. Schnitt Julian Schlumberger und die Musik kommt von Richard Waterman.