00:00:00: with law and justice back then.

00:00:02: You know, it was... Sometimes now these days I forget how it was.

00:00:06: But basically like every single day we would get news about yet another decision attack on that institution or disinstitution Like everyday there will be something.

00:00:17: Obviously wasn't at such an imperial scale as it is with Donald Trump for example but That's the kind of like Everyday We feel were just being attacked and attacked.

00:00:28: And when i say women use marginalized communities, basically anyone who wasn't part of this like ultra-Christian conservative circles.

00:00:40: Nationalistic circles and so for many years it felt like we're constantly on the defense side and constantly trying to protest against them.

00:00:51: Yeah, in a way like for me as a young adult.

00:00:54: As an you know eighteen-year old twenty year old stepping into my adult life I realized that if we get yet another term of right wing government so the third term We cannot be sure If democratic backsliding will just not complete itself.

00:01:32: Hello and welcome to the What's Doing Podcast.

00:01:35: Here we are again talking once a month with activists about how not only can we fight as leftists, but also win.

00:01:43: We are Valentin and Inken who are interested in political strategy and make this podcast and discussions about it with you.

00:01:51: It has been three months since our podcast break and we are now reporting with a special.

00:01:57: In the next three episodes, we will talk to activists from Poland, Israel and Brazil about left-wing activism under right-wing extremist governments.

00:02:06: For over a year, the AFD in Sachsen-Anhalt and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern have already talked about reaching absolute majority for the first time.

00:02:17: And of course this would be difficult for many people who live there.

00:02:21: At the same time they developed some kind of frustration to think that it is only worth thinking whether a coalition between CDU and leftists makes sense if that keeps fascists away from power.

00:02:32: As a

00:02:32: movement podcast, we want to go further and talk with people about what is even possible politically when law extremists rule.

00:02:42: And how it will be started again!

00:02:43: That's why I spoke for this episode with the Polish climate activist Dominika Lasota.

00:02:51: Dominika was part of a campaign that concentrated in Poland during the last parliamentary session on increasing voting participation among young women and has committed to the re-elections of the ultra-right law and justice party, which is also known here as PISS Party.

00:03:09: On the newly founded block Frontline Notes that we would like you to put your heart at this point, Dominika published an article in which she describes quite self-critical that it was naive to think that everything would get better with the renaissance of Law & Justice and they didn't expect the liberals to come after the extreme right.

00:03:33: Before we start with this interview, there is one more thing I want to point out.

00:03:37: From that episode, Valentin and me do the interviews on our own, not like before.

00:03:43: In the afternoon you will hear about us together again but this time I'll tell you what I found particularly exciting in the conversation.

00:03:51: so take a look at it.

00:03:53: But now let's have fun doing an interview with Dominika Lasota from Poland and Valentin!

00:04:16: So I have Dominika Lasota now on our podcast and i'm very happy that you could make it.

00:04:23: Dominika, welcome to Vastun!

00:04:27: Hi hi thank you for inviting me and uh...I am always really happy and excited just chat about um what's going in Poland but also was going on Germany because even though countries such a complex history, if you can say diplomatically.

00:04:47: I think there are some common trends that yeah it's just fascinating for me to observe how on both sides of the other river things they're playing out so good

00:05:02: Great.

00:05:03: Before we jump right into the conversation and talk more about how to defeat the far-right, what people working against the AFD in Germany can learn from Polish experience maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit more through our listeners And also discuss your thoughts on these questions around the Far Right because originally I think your background was more in climate activism, right?

00:05:37: So maybe just tell us a little bit how you came to work on these issues.

00:05:42: Sure sure so.

00:05:44: i am twenty four years old now and when I was starting my activism uh...in the climate- in the youth climate movement..I was seventeen eighteen And my parents, my family was never political.

00:06:01: I wasn't ever meant to be an activist because i was a nerd and very shy... ...and basically just felt like all of this big scary world in big big scary politics is something that's absolutely beyond control or influence especially coming from a city where you know, it's just so boring and dead all the time.

00:06:26: Since I was a teenager as an nerd reading these things about climate emergency inequalities and basically like the rise of undemocratic forces around the world in Poland harder and harder, not to feel like I had to do something.

00:06:46: So that's how i joined the movement in activism In general... ...I literally just came into a local small action.. ..in my home city And then it was okay!

00:06:57: I may help out with writing some graphics and so on....and I got really excited To find friends and suddenly as I found myself surrounded by people who were in shy, who are nerdy but also felt like they have this huge role and purpose to show the rest of Poland.

00:07:25: So I got swallowed very early on actually into my activism.

00:07:30: The Big Women Strikes Broke Out In Poland after the law injustice tightened the abortion laws so attacked women's rights.

00:07:39: big protests out of nowhere.

00:07:41: Out-of-nowhere, there were like thousands and thousands people on the street.

00:07:45: And for me that was a very formative moment because I realized oh my god even here or in a place where i would never think can grow political resistance that political resistance is emerging, and so I wanted to be part of it.

00:08:03: And that was my beginning like a proper-proper being blessed into the movements... ...and i stayed ever since because for me heading in to twenty-twenty three we were exhausted tired hopeless but also you know we were so scared and aware that any more of this might really completely define our lives.

00:09:02: that sense

00:09:21: of like, we just have to do everything.

00:09:24: To stop it?

00:09:25: To prevent this?

00:09:25: That was what kind of guided me into the election year back

00:09:31: then.".

00:09:32: Yeah!

00:09:32: That's really interesting insights.

00:09:34: already I mean in Germany.

00:09:37: right now The situation is that In local elections coming up in September and there might be an absolute majority on the... local level for the German far-right party, the AFD.

00:09:51: You having lived under authoritarian far right rule can you talk a little bit more about how activism on the left works when the right is in government?

00:10:07: Well it's never boring not for sure...you always have plenty of work to do.

00:10:12: but be fair like We have this comparison right now, yeah?

00:10:17: Like we had Donald Tusk who was supposedly an alternative to all injustice and think that like... ...we have the better guys in office.

00:10:28: I think looking back activism under law-injustice under the right wing government was much more mobilizing than it is these days which just you know, it is very tricky because at the same time back then we knew that all of these inhumane policies being implemented but there was a sense resistance and movement.

00:10:51: There's fire coming out from people especially among progressives who have this energy determination to bring change into the world of many restrictions and fear because public media were completely overturbed.

00:11:14: There was very little conversations with the government officials, they would very rarely organize consultations around bills.

00:11:24: Bills could be processed sometimes within a day.

00:11:28: for example that bill will be introduced an exit.

00:11:30: it'll be voted on.

00:11:31: then exit we go to the Senate suddenly, you know it's in power.

00:11:38: And so there was very little chances for us to be part of the democratic process.

00:11:44: that was obviously like a huge corruption going on and plain money like taking from the public sources to party officials.

00:11:55: And there was a lot of surveillance, it was under law and justice that they introduced Pegasus which was essentially tapping the phones and communication with people organizations not in line with government.

00:12:13: I think We were never able to know how far these guys would go, you know?

00:12:21: Just when we thought that like oh it cannot get any worse they will show us.

00:12:25: That can't be much worse.

00:12:27: But people were mobilized certainly right now Like since three years of having Donald Tusk in office.

00:12:34: What I'm saying is It feels as if we're swallowed by this tasteless pudding Because things aren't moving forward.

00:12:41: Things are and also terribly collapsing, but we are just stuck in it.

00:12:47: It feels wrong that people do not protest now.

00:12:52: They're either frustrated and hopeless without motivation or they feel like things aren't bad enough for them to actually take the streets.

00:13:03: You talked a little bit about how it's easier to mobilize against the very strong opponent, like the far right.

00:13:10: And in movement politics.

00:13:12: often there is somehow this mobilization paradox almost where... The less likely that something can be won by our movements and the easy it is get people on streets protest.

00:13:29: when you talk of time under law injustice now, so under the far-right government.

00:13:35: Apart from successfully mobilizing people do you have any chance to win some issues?

00:13:42: or was it just to prevent the worst?

00:13:45: Certainly there were things that would move forward.

00:13:48: for example when we look at the years in which there is a boom on solar energy it was actually during law injustice because people felt like there's a lot of middle class and upper-class people in Poland feeling that the government is senselessly blocking their development on this future clean energy.

00:14:09: so we're going to invest.

00:14:10: in it itself.

00:14:12: and so like a lot of that transition happened then.

00:14:15: There was also a lot wins for the environmental movement,

00:14:19: e.g.,

00:14:19: the policy...the cleaner policies in many Polish cities have been highly polluted.

00:14:28: It's under law injustice government.

00:14:31: very strong policies were introduced by the government.

00:14:35: And, you know?

00:14:36: You have to remember that with law and justice it is important to understand because people get like our right wing wrong very often traditional right-wing in Poland.

00:14:48: so Law & Justice which right now isn't a very different state but back then these weren't like Donald Trump pro business politicians.

00:15:01: They were a blend of like social economics plus hyper-nationalistic, ultra Christian anti democratic politics.

00:15:11: Which is a weird blend but in the way... The reason why I'm bringing this up?

00:15:15: because we very often And I've seen it with many progressive people abroad also.

00:15:22: We do not understand the psychology that leads people to vote for parties like that.

00:15:28: The way law and justice came into power in twenty fifteen was mainly on their economic platform, and mainly this whole agenda of seeing citizens that liberal elites were ignoring for decades In Poland when we abolished the communist regime in the nineties.

00:15:48: That revolution that workers led, it was overtaken by a lot of business had a lot of like, neoliberal elites and corporate interests.

00:16:00: And we've had the shock doctrine in the nineties hyper capitalism being introduced here.

00:16:06: Many people were talking about billions of people losing their workplaces suddenly living in much more impoverished state than they where under communism.

00:16:16: most importantly working-class people who, after they've led the country to such a big change suddenly they were turned by this new supposedly democratic elite.

00:16:29: They're being told that like no you are lazy You don't mean anything to the states.

00:16:35: just sit silent and scramble for basic living.

00:16:40: For many years Polish politics was sort of not talk about this but the economic inequalities and that political frustration, hopelessness.

00:16:53: It stayed with people.

00:16:54: so what law and justice did was they tapped into into these communities.

00:17:00: So usually people from rural areas, people from smaller cities and towns... People of lower income like they just realized that they want to go for-for that electorate.

00:17:12: And the way they did it was among other things by introducing The so called five hundred plus policy which was a way To Just give Like something like one hundred twenty euros per month to families with more than One children.

00:17:27: And so, you know like.

00:17:29: obviously it was a mix of also nationalistic concepts but basically it was an anti-establishment party at the time.

00:17:38: They would bash on the rich white teeth politicians from Warsaw because they were coming from the marches right?

00:17:46: Even though it completely... It was story that made up and successful story.

00:17:51: I think.

00:17:51: what we as progressives feel is Obviously, it's super valid to talk about how bad their far right is and the right wing.

00:18:02: And how dangerous it is to live under it.

00:18:04: but in order for us to truly meet at a moment we're in We have to understand that why people go to them?

00:18:13: Also Why Is That To Many People.

00:18:16: To Many Working Class People It Is The Far Right.

00:18:20: That is the only option that seems to see them.

00:18:25: Why?

00:18:25: Is it that these people seem really connect with those who lead very often lives full of daily struggles, because this problem isn't the far-right itself but like a political mainstream that seems detached from ordinary citizens?

00:18:46: Yeah, I think there's a common heritage at least in the east of Germany where AFD is also especially strong that people are very much demoralized by early years of transition from GDR to Bundesrepublik.

00:19:07: They were hoping for more democratic rights and freedoms but what they got was in first place poverty or neoliberalism which then leads to this right-wing backlash that we are seeing now.

00:19:21: And I also think it's really important, too... ...to understand the hardships these right wing successes build on somehow and exploit even though they don't offer any good alternative for those people.

00:19:36: Eventually you see them in office like so much of their promises are completely forgotten about!

00:19:44: But then, you know when I try to sort of like imagine myself in a situation like this if the political scene is not talking to me it's not offering anything and i seem to be getting out of politics.

00:20:01: Then at least get someone who emotionally relates how im feeling so ill get these emotions that sort therapy side of things.

00:20:14: I will get that, this public therapy.

00:20:16: you know it.

00:20:17: materially my life may worsen but at least i'll feel like someone's seeing me and thats a huge thing in the world is just collapsing for there to be politicians who see even when we look through some great progressive politicians they are really relate with what im doing.

00:20:41: to really understand deeply like the psychology behind that because many people come in, they approach far-right voters with trying to reform them and save from their far right.

00:20:55: Come on!

00:20:56: These people don't need saving They need to be heard.

00:20:59: Yeah, you were also involved in the mobilizations against next far-right victory.

00:21:06: In two thousand and twenty three, You are part of the movements that mobilize people so effectively That law and justice party The far right government in Poland couldn't govern for another term And they were replaced by more liberal coalition led by Donald Tusk.

00:21:27: Could you talk a little bit more about different strategies that led to the defeat of The Fowlright in twenty, twenty three?

00:21:34: For

00:21:35: us.

00:21:35: The key was really listening to people and like just watching closely what their vibes are out there.

00:21:44: And second innovation being super dynamic very flexible with all these sort ideas allowed ourselves to do.

00:21:56: At the beginning of For me, that was the interesting bit is around March of twenty-twenty three.

00:22:03: We had elections were scheduled for October and in March Twenty-Twenty Three there's a small research where they said basically checking their willingness to vote.

00:22:19: We could read from that women between eighteen and thirty five more than half did not plan on voting.

00:22:27: Many people ignored this statistic but for me when I saw the spouse, i remember to this day like...I was shocked because what do you mean?

00:22:35: In a country that has seen one of Europe's biggest women protests in the past years.

00:22:42: What do you means?

00:22:43: half my group is just completely given up!

00:22:47: But then when gave it second turn?

00:22:50: No, I mean that totally makes sense.

00:22:51: If i ask myself how do I feel about voting?

00:22:54: I do not want to have anything in common with that because... ...I'm just hopeless!

00:22:59: I am absolutely angry but also tired like no you know take it all away from me.

00:23:07: But obviously for me was clear we cannot let this pass We can't slip our attention and so we figured okay.

00:23:18: So if that's the case, then we're going to focus on us.

00:23:21: On young people and women because this is who we are.

00:23:25: This is what?

00:23:25: The sunrise which is a movement I'm part of.

00:23:31: And so in reality where the opposition leaders Like, what we're gonna do is take back our power and take back the public attention on us.

00:23:54: On real people, on our needs ,on our struggles, on all frustrations.

00:23:58: Obviously We had no instructions in how to do it.

00:24:02: No clue.

00:24:05: Hungarian elections, the twenty-twenty two elections that you know putting all of our hopes and energies into like rallying behind one opposition leader is just not good because then like The rest of society it's just sort of You know put to the side.

00:24:21: And so we decided to like basically make young people and make women.

00:24:26: they're decisive players Of the elections.

00:24:30: We did in many different ways Like I remember what would do as with our Teenage activists and our student activists, we would.

00:24:39: bump into, like we would go to different political rallies and candidate meetings.

00:24:45: And then we'd either confront the politicians or disrupt these events.

00:24:50: just bring their attention towards us.

00:24:52: We also went to music festivals and cultural events to train people in voting... ...and they brought a big ballot box with fake election cards.

00:25:06: so make them choose which issues they were most concerned with.

00:25:11: We would do a lot of content online, just basically like putting our voice out there.

00:25:16: also we would go and...we will do fun things you know?

00:25:20: And that was also what we said to us at the beginning of summer.

00:25:26: it seems like we're not gonna make it but for these final months before elections let's delusionally assumed that we're going to make it and let's have as much fun as we can in the process.

00:25:42: And so, for example remember?

00:25:44: We decided in the summer to do a silent disco in front of our parliament!

00:25:49: That was their first ever party like this... ...and SO many people came which is basically organized by huge parties you

00:25:56: know?!

00:25:56: In front of parliamentary offices.

00:25:59: It felt great!

00:26:00: It fell awesome Because it wasn't like a serious protest for social justice, none of these things.

00:26:08: But all of the sudden we just showed to people that politics... The way we are defining it can have different ways and we shouldn't turn away from it.

00:26:18: We could have fun or joke around in a very unserious Gen Z-way but let's be part of this.

00:26:36: Valentin speaks with Dominika Lasota from Poland about how the peace party, the Law and Justice Party has started again.

00:26:43: And what we can learn as activists against right-wing governments in combat.

00:26:47: If you know people who are also interested for this topic then click on the link in your podcatcher now to check out the episode.

00:26:54: Now have fun listening!

00:27:01: And then, towards closer to the elections we decided like for a final bit We're gonna do an election video because if all these political candidates can have their election videos... ...we want one of ours.

00:27:14: But the election video was just highlighted different phases of the law and justice, their right-wing reality.

00:27:21: And how it hits minority groups and women and young people?

00:27:25: How they are told to be silent by politicians in how politicians would insult us on a daily basis?

00:27:33: Towards the end of this video... ...people change from like a silent finger….

00:27:40: …to the middle fingers so that they turn their hand and show them to authorities.

00:27:45: And that one's just, people went crazy about it.

00:27:49: It was the most watched electoral video of all time.

00:27:52: We uploaded online to Instagram Facebook YouTube Tiktok but then... ...it just went viral and like cinemas took it up Influencers took it off media took it out.

00:28:06: The non-public TV would play this video for a whole week before elections.

00:28:14: So crazy things happened to it.

00:28:16: And you know, that's not for me to say like yeah go and do this big electoral video That's gonna win you the elections because for us It was also some strategic thinking but a lot of luck But I think i still stand by The kind approach we had Like bringing back sort of taking back the attention To us from them to us like making the elections about us, not about the parties.

00:28:45: The politicians because you know as long as we play their game they're gonna win.

00:28:51: and We have two like just set the rules.

00:28:54: Yeah this really interesting insights.

00:28:56: We should definitely also link the video in the show notes.

00:29:01: the weird thing In a way is You did have a lot of success with your approaches Also feel that you didn't get what you mobilized for.

00:29:10: So, you wrote this piece for front-line notes arguing that getting rid of the far right wasn't actually the hardest part in your fight against law and justice but more the liberals that came afterwards.

00:29:24: so after the defeat of the Far Right... For people who are not that familiar with Polish politics a new president came into office Donald Tusk.

00:29:36: in the European press coverage, seen as a democratic warrior for Poland who took back power from the far right.

00:29:46: re-democratizing Poland.

00:29:49: Yeah, you paint a very skeptical picture of this victory and especially what came after this victory can talk about how the situation has changed after the victory of Dona Tusk?

00:30:06: And why are so frustrated with the Liberals who come after law injustice?

00:30:11: Yeah, yeah.

00:30:12: For sure to clarify Donald Tusk became our prime minister not the president and that is key because The law and justice was still holding the presidential office, because we have such a system that there is the government and Donald Trump became prime minister.

00:30:29: That's like the main executive organ but then the president signs all of those bills.

00:30:35: once he or she signs these bills are not law anymore or you know they just disappear from the picture.

00:30:48: When Donald Tusk came into power and they formed this coalition, multi-party coalition They were still having that blockade in In the face of President Duda.

00:30:59: so The Law and Justice president I think we always knew That the right wing will have their president and that he's going to be obstructing, in fact they're gonna be fighting.

00:31:10: And trying there best for this governing coalition do not

00:31:14: succeed.".

00:31:15: So I was like the Bill Cate... That we were aware of!

00:31:19: You know?

00:31:19: The fight is NOT gonna end.

00:31:21: but i think what we are not expecting-and I was definitely not expecting it-is how quickly Donald Tusk and that new governing coalition would turn completely turn on the things that they were promising us in the elections.

00:31:40: You know, when the electoral campaign... They were painting a picture of you know, the alternative-the democratic alternative that stands on the side of the people and very early on into entering their offices they would start to replicate the policies either prolonging the policies, behaving in a similar style or just piece by piece dismantling our hopes for this transformative change that we voted for.

00:32:18: The reason why I wrote it was because They seemed like the better guys.

00:32:26: For a long time, people who became ministers were our friends but they weren't some way out allies... ...they would let us into the parliament and fight for us to be able go all of these commissions.

00:32:41: Like they'd speak with us or carry the message from different social movements.

00:32:48: And once we got in those big offices it was They just completely forgot who they were before.

00:32:55: The politics changed its aesthetic, but it didn't change its content.

00:33:00: you know we would still get politics that stands on the side of big businesses not on the site of the workers.

00:33:06: We will end up with like never ending debates about how we cannot change the reproductive law and like align it with the international health standards that we have to keep this conservative church-influenced policy, piece by piece.

00:33:29: We would just hear these new government repeating things saying you'd hear all those right wingers speak for years and at the beginning on a cognitive level which did not know what It was, we were completely lost and confused.

00:33:46: And I think to be honest like the big strategic mistake is that We really are not prepared for them to win Like it just sort of came as a surprise that they won.

00:33:58: We didn't have as a civil society, as organizations like we didn't Have a list of life...we want this reform and that reform and this reform Like these three or five things.

00:34:07: They need to be your common ground No matter the different coalition parties differences.

00:34:14: These thing you deliver?

00:34:16: Because for so long our goal was just fight against law injustice Prevent them from continuing Fight Against.

00:34:26: But we didn't know what were fighting for.

00:34:28: And that bit us back, really and turned out to end it up with us just sitting sort of like powerlessly seeing this new coalition get lost and confused... ...and get stuck!

00:34:43: We didn't really know how to- We did not really know what we wanted from them.

00:34:49: That was our mistake.

00:34:52: We weren't ready for the victory.

00:34:55: And so now, you know it's years later.

00:34:58: We are a year ahead of the next parliamentary elections and to be honest like The way we've done so much work ever since So much work in actually understanding what our priorities... ...and so You know..we know what we want to fight.

00:35:17: then we know What do we want achieve?

00:35:21: Yeah, but party politics we changed our approach to it so much ever since.

00:35:27: Yeah, I think that's a very common strategic dilemma when working with parties as social movements.

00:35:35: On some way you want the good guys in office right?

00:35:39: You rather want Donald Tusk in office than Kaczynski and his law-and-order party.

00:35:44: And once...you have the good guy is an office or better guy is on office.

00:35:49: you find yourself at this weird place where On one hand, you don't want to criticize the... The good guys too much because otherwise people see them to critically and they lose support.

00:36:04: And that means strengthening the right wing again, um on-and On the other hand if you just sit still and don't do anything You get the same politics repackaged with different aesthetics.

00:36:16: So somehow you are in this like blackmailing trap Where whatever you do...the bad thing comes out In the end.

00:36:25: I think it's interesting Interesting how you try to reposition yourself now towards focusing more on specific issues, ignoring the party politics side about it a little bit.

00:36:37: Do I understand correctly or would describe your approach for next elections?

00:36:49: whether our critique and protests are a problem to discover in coalition, because for me the... The problems here is not that we're going criticize them.

00:37:03: It's fact they play the game of right wing.

00:37:08: if there something makes it come back into government.

00:37:13: It's the fact that this governing coalition has turned a political mainstream, or maybe not termed but like it has solidified The Political Mainstream to be right-wing mainstream because they repeat their right wingers policies.

00:37:27: They speak the way Right Wingers do and yeah just play at our game.

00:37:32: So we're no DSU And We are not going To Be pushed Into This Like Position Where You know, we would be blackmailed by those in power like no.

00:37:40: Like at the end of day We will fight for justice No matter who is in the office And we definitely Fight Issues and for very concrete stuff these days like in twenty-twenty four.

00:37:52: So in the year after the election here, we started building what's called plan for generations And basically it was our attempt to answer as activists is like Gen Z and Millennials that we are in the sunrise.

00:38:06: We try to answer The question of light.

00:38:08: What's the country?

00:38:09: That you really want to live like?

00:38:11: what kind of Poland we want to build our futures in.

00:38:14: And so, we assembled that and released it ever since which is basically building the power of our movement recruiting new people training you building alliances with all the movements and essentially we're just trying to build this new political ecosystem.

00:38:33: That's gonna be about justice, that's going to be about decent living for all... ...and it is going to have mutual solidarity.

00:38:42: If party politicians will want part of it great but if not then we are still doing our job and lead a struggle in this work the way we wanted.

00:38:53: And so, approach and strategy for next year's elections is... For me in my head it still a bit unclear.

00:39:00: But I think one thing that we learned was that We need to have it very clear What are you trying to win in Poland?

00:39:10: You know what we're trying to build here.

00:39:13: Not which party do want push-to-win.

00:39:17: It's all about, like what kind of solutions we want to deliver our people.

00:39:21: What kind of concrete material change?

00:39:23: We want make sure that people can see and experience.

00:39:28: That is the question.

00:39:30: I'm not interested in social polls right now And don't ask things or he doesn't think.

00:39:36: Yeah, that sounds very interesting and promising in the east of Germany especially also the lender where we have local elections coming up.

00:39:45: We already see now how different parties are forming more and more incoherent coalitions just to prevent AFD from taking power.

00:39:56: this is a little bit worrying I think.

00:39:58: on one hand You can understand they want to prevent majority from the AFD.

00:40:03: But talking about these concrete issues and material wins, this completely gets out of sight when you just focus on getting together the numbers right?

00:40:13: Because then with a coalition from conservatives to left... ...you will not find a program that actually tackles problems leading people into voting for the AfD

00:40:24: Seeing how it would play down in Poland And I'm not fully confident on that, so it's just me and... ...I have loose thoughts around but i do feel like the answer to The Rise of the Far Right lays in bold, courageous dynamic people-centered progressive movements political movement.

00:40:48: It doesn't lay in these flaky coalitions that are supposed to be there for you know, To save us from like the bigger threat of the far right.

00:40:58: Like For me I constantly live in this just in this toxic political system That favors like big businesses The powerful rich and not ordinary citizens.

00:41:12: We need coalitions to counter this, but coalitions are going to be like rooted in these courageous politics.

00:41:19: Care-oriented politics, solidarity politics and not just momentary unions to avoid what's disrupting of the game... No I think that this game needs to be disrupted Just not by fascist people But we have to disrupt it.

00:41:37: Yes, absolutely.

00:41:38: Maybe just as a last question if you were to flesh out one-to three lessons learned that could give advice for people trying counter the far right in Germany now what would be your advice?

00:41:55: Well first of all... The Far Right might win but the planet will not stop existing like the world won't stop.

00:42:03: we're gonna wake up again and there is going to be plenty of work to do that next day.

00:42:09: And so I would just, i know it's scary but in a way like they want us to be scared!

00:42:18: So our approach was not give them what we were doing with with fierceness, with power.

00:42:29: With hope also a joy you know?

00:42:32: With our vibe like the Slavic fire.

00:42:35: that was our approach.

00:42:38: so just try to not give in to fear.

00:42:43: That is always going be work.

00:42:45: and I would say we live times when people call for us to shake up the systems that we live in.

00:42:54: For the far writers, they shake these systems and obviously a very toxic way.

00:43:02: but the answer to it should be us shaking this reality an hour away In this bold courageous way That's gonna fiercely fight for justice for people And fiercely fought for things We believe are most important.

00:43:17: So don't be scared Be playful Be joyful Experiment Have fun, because you know it might be that the world will be burning but at least like... You've given your best and protected your heart's unconscious.

00:43:34: Try to show people there is a better reality to strive for.

00:43:39: so yeah maybe those are just... Be prepared!

00:43:44: Because if you aren't prepared, If you assume that You might win but actually... ...you don't want to win Then when you're screwed so Don't be screwed please.

00:43:57: Thanks so much Dominika, thanks for coming on the show and talk about Polish experience of defeating the far-right.

00:44:05: And what comes after

00:44:06: it?

00:44:06: Thank you!

00:44:08: If we can be any support... ...we are there.

00:44:11: We've lived through this government but still here.

00:44:14: We're not moving anywhere So feel free to reach out.

00:44:34: So, there we are again.

00:44:36: And as before the podcast break already, Inken and I sit together in the mini-series now to gather the loose ends.

00:44:44: Now Inken will just ask you what did you find particularly interesting with the interview with Dominika?

00:44:51: What can we do for the fight against AfD?

00:44:54: maybe from your activism ...and the campaigns that she told us

00:45:02: about?

00:45:02: The first thing I noticed was that in the campaign you made before the election, they aimed at a very specific group to which Dominika herself also belonged.

00:45:11: And because she didn't say anything about trying not to reach WLN... ...I feel like it often happens elsewhere or even in Germany where people say there are these big blocks of people who don´t want to vote and try to achieve this.

00:45:24: But those are different people from different age groups, different gender groups for various reasons as well.

00:45:30: The Dominica has decided that we really go to women between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five who don't want their plans.

00:45:37: That's a group from which she comes herself, she understands her very well for this reason And they pull off with the campaign.

00:45:44: This obviously worked out quite well too.

00:45:46: I think it was the first take I would participate in So to speak.

00:45:49: if you make pre-selection campaigns then really so to say a possible specific group to get out that one knows well and can therefore achieve good.

00:45:59: Could you also say that this was a bit of an organising perspective?

00:46:04: Yes,

00:46:06: of course.

00:46:07: I mean she is a young woman, even affected by the PiS party in Poland and has also told us that every day there was some kind of report from the court.

00:46:17: We talked to an activist from Poland for quite a long time where it all started with a pregnancy break which then began organizing pregnancy breaks themselves because this was also a right that was restricted from the Pi's government.

00:46:33: And of course we were directly affected by this young lady.

00:46:36: organizing from a personal perspective, but also with a broader vision.

00:46:41: Not only to improve your own situation... ...but then really lead you towards a bigger political path?

00:46:45: I didn't think about the point

00:46:47: of organizing and focusing on young women who had planned their voices before the election.

00:46:59: I found it interesting that Dominika told us this video.

00:47:05: I'll try to summarize it a bit so that you can think about this.

00:47:10: I would definitely recommend watching the video over the link in the show notes.

00:47:16: You see different everyday situations, people who are standing in the kitchen, lying down and doing things like we do every day... And in the background, there are thugs on Polish peace-politicians who, ultimately against these groups, hate and try to marginalize them somehow.

00:47:42: In the further course of this video you can see women holding their fingers at each other's mouth as if they were someone who meant that she should be calm, so this classic sign.

00:47:52: You turn your hand and you see that it is not the index finger, which they have in front of their mouth.

00:47:59: It's just the middle finger so that they actually collective such a large group of women to show them the collective law and justice party with the middle-finger and say no more like someone else.

00:48:12: And I think this kind Video is a very good example of how to get out of such a position, the marginalization.

00:48:24: A little bit around the switch in an empowerment message or what would you think?

00:48:30: Yes I find it also to show that we are just asked about and there's a clear signal to send.

00:48:36: so I found it very powerful really cool video which was still interesting for me and that's something Dominika said too that they really focused on the people in this campaign, who deal with politics and not so much on the peace party.

00:48:49: as a shock.

00:48:50: And I found it somehow interesting because I felt like we often tend to say that the AfD is racist, the AfD sexist... So you always

00:48:59: tell them about Maximilian Krah?

00:49:01: Exactly!

00:49:02: Or by Björn Höcke – there are lots of men talking about those who are dangerous… And of course it's true that men are dangerous.

00:49:08: But for the people you want to reach, it is much more powerful when you show them and they also show in a empowered situation.

00:49:16: And so to speak, especially just with those who you want talk about video message or the image material and the messages.

00:49:27: And I thought that was really cool, full of power.

00:49:30: It obviously worked well too!

00:49:31: Yes maybe this is now the right time to go a little further.

00:49:35: in the subsequent discussion .

00:49:39: Dominika said somehow she was very successful with her campaign.

00:49:42: The video went viral , the Law & Justice Party was voted out

00:49:46: etc.,

00:49:46: but after some time it all came into stock.

00:49:50: And now they are also totally unhappy with the government that is coming after it, with the federal union around Donald Tusk.

00:49:59: What were things like for you where you say out there maybe something can be taken?

00:50:03: Maybe you can translate this into a German context.

00:50:08: Yes, that's what she said herself.

00:50:10: Not just planning to survive but also counting on winning and thinking about the things you really want to implement.

00:50:16: I had a completely different scenario in my life But at least I had to think of how it worked for me after the Amperegion came into power because even though i have experienced so much campaigning The power was put in to create this changeable atmosphere with Germany, not the CDU anymore.

00:50:40: A government led by the SPD had to stop a lot of projects after all these years.

00:50:47: And then the Ampel came into force and there wasn't any more organized block that was still... a weight, so to speak for progressive politics.

00:50:56: And that was done in an easy way by the FDP and the SPD did it very easily in this conservative direction too often.

00:51:04: Yes, so to calculate that you could actually win if you make campaigns and put yourself on a change of government.

00:51:10: And then also think about what the must-haves are which one really wants to implement themselves.

00:51:15: I believe this is just from the perspective of movement in takeover.

00:51:18: Now for

00:51:19: the elections in the east, the election in Sachsen-Anhaltz but also in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

00:51:24: If it's very optimistic now Then we can say okay maybe Does it come from a similar scenario?

00:51:31: That some huge coalition of conservatives to the left somehow prevents AFD, maybe at least in one federal country if not both.

00:51:42: And that would probably be somewhat like what Dominika said about this.

00:51:48: There is often this dilemma that is said when you criticize us now and better government... The Better Guys says this in the interview, now for our politics is criticized.

00:52:02: Then it ends up on the account of rights.

00:52:06: So if you try to put your frustrations onto the street then above all that people who may have helped these huge coalitions into office are so frustrated.

00:52:21: Maybe next election would be different, and then the majority wouldn't stand anymore.

00:52:26: The AFD is even easier

00:52:28: to fight

00:52:29: for power.

00:52:30: How do you get out of this dilemma?

00:52:33: Did it convince you what she says there?

00:52:35: or how will you deal with that in a specific German context now?

00:52:39: A bit far.

00:52:39: I'd say that Dominika's approach might have been a little bit shabby.

00:52:44: We as a movement for our issues, we don't always think of the consequences and take over practically responsibility that could happen on the level of parties which coalition etc.

00:52:57: But yes somehow I also have such an answer in me who says you might not do it with one side too easy And maybe on the other hand it's dangerous to do so.

00:53:08: How are you looking

00:53:09: at it?

00:53:09: Yes, I mean it's just a sign of the dilemma that you can't find a good way out.

00:53:13: And in this case as well.

00:53:16: So there is definitely these dangers on both sides.

00:53:19: if one only goes into big coalitions and then no more able to implement their own policies he asks people why they have chosen him.

00:53:24: To the right somehow too?

00:53:26: If at the same time you follow your own interests in such large coalitions then the coalition breaks apart and extremists are extremely strong on the right side in some cases.

00:53:36: I think what i will take with me.

00:53:39: is to follow specific issues of politics.

00:53:44: So neither, so to speak always have this narrative that the big coalition has to hold or a very large coalition must hold because it's just in time for two people.

00:53:54: somehow doesn't matter.

00:53:55: they want know if things are going well right now and whether their content will come up at some point.

00:54:00: And I think there would be something about politicians who move the people on site in Saxony-Anhalt oder Mecklenburg-Vorpommern specifically.

00:54:10: And now, of course, I don't want to randomize the things that interest

00:54:14: him.

00:54:14: But there are also these tactical election approaches again and again in front of the truth this year.

00:54:21: There you mix up a lot into this terrain of party.

00:54:24: politics is what you say but it's still important today as well as movement maybe with support or would you say?

00:54:31: That's what you let the parties do.

00:54:33: You have to get them out of there by yourself, where they can or don't get it.

00:54:37: but that is not something for us as activists in which we somehow mix ourselves up because at the end nobody else will hear about this.

00:54:49: and then we also want to make our hands dirty.

00:54:51: We've

00:54:51: been talking about this a long time ago.

00:54:52: My opinion is still that one should naturally be able to have a position Because if two people are not mixed into each other, then you let your party go.

00:55:02: We have often seen that they do not get on the line to agree and, so to speak, make meaningful choice recommendations.

00:55:07: That is why I would say you can mix yourself as a movement there too.

00:55:12: And also the question of what kind of demand one can propose before supporting an candidate.

00:55:18: There are old-fashioned candidates in checks.

00:55:20: You just ask them if they stand up for their own issues and then support each other.

00:55:23: But now let's turn around.

00:55:24: What else did you take with us?

00:55:25: I can totally agree with what you just said.

00:55:26: For me, this ending point was important in the conversation

00:55:29: where Dominika says that the world doesn't end up with a right government.

00:55:38: So even next morning when you wake up and have to do more things tomorrow if you want to stay active then you also can be active under... In some cases, you have to adapt strategies that change the level on which your focus is.

00:56:00: Now let's assume the AFD would put the government in one of these countries after the election.

00:56:04: Of course there are still individual cities where people are even more progressive than before.

00:56:12: You focus more on that or these things, so just like there again.

00:56:16: Not only think about the choice and then you either win and have to be prepared for it Or the world is over And one falls through the clip but then there's still a lot to do.

00:56:27: That was kind of a big learning for me.

00:56:28: Maybe

00:56:29: one last point I'd like to highlight is that it's interesting what she did for a campaign, but also after the election.

00:56:38: She made it so strong that right-wingers are afraid of winning and progressive people rather enjoy winning with hope And that she also set up strong factions, which is why they called her Gen Z policy.

00:56:52: They put a lot of effort into it and somehow made fun out of them.

00:56:56: She told us about this rave.

00:56:58: I have to say again our episode for a very long time with Serja Popovic from Serbia who has told you all about it... how they, back then in Serbia as a democratic movement against the dictator, also made it very strong that they put a lot of pranks on politics.

00:57:13: So to politicians who do not go so much with aggression and anger but rather with humor which partly makes these authoritarian figures laugh with their action forms.

00:57:25: And then I have to think again that, so to speak against this fear and also the aggressiveness of rights on our side is actually humorous and joy and joy in life.

00:57:36: Maybe these are what rather should be the brand core leftist policy?

00:57:43: And

00:57:44: they can also take off from it with which you can win back people as well.

00:57:52: Cool!

00:57:53: Then maybe we'll leave

00:57:55: it for now.

00:58:12: That was episode one in

00:58:12: our

00:58:13: mini-series.

00:58:14: What Do When The Rights Rule.

00:58:15: Enjoy episode two.

00:58:18: until then when it's time What are you doing?