00:00:00: At the political level, you do have a whole debate around the Cordon Sanitaire or against the firewall.

00:00:08: The Political Firewall Against the Far Right but it's important to think of that Cordon sanitaire Or if that fire wall in social terms as well Basically.

00:00:18: first of all It is very important To make distinction between voting far right and being far-right.

00:00:25: You know many people might vote far right But they haven't fully identified as being far right yet.

00:00:33: And trying to build a wedge between those two things is very important, you know?

00:00:39: Trying to make sure that the people who may have occasionally voted far-right and made presently vote far right because they think I'm tired of all the traditional politicians.

00:00:51: let's give these guys a chance but who may not yes identify fully?

00:00:56: Hello and welcome to the Rastoon Podcast.

00:01:03: Here we talk once a month with activists and activists about how as leftists not only can fight, but also win.

00:01:18: We are Valentin & Inken.

00:01:20: We like to discuss political strategies and make this podcast now for you to share the discussion on it.

00:01:59: Today you will hear the third episode of our mini-series.

00:02:03: What do we do when we direct right?

00:02:06: And if you haven't heard any other episodes then it's worth getting into them!

00:02:10: Today we speak with Rodrigo Nunes from Brazil.

00:02:13: Rodrigo was active in social movements for a long time and is now professor at the Catholic University of Rio de Janeiro.

00:02:19: He has just written a book about Brazilian rights, and what Bolsonaro talks about in Brazil over global rights.

00:02:27: Today Valentin speaks with him on what the challenges for leftist movement under Bolsonaro were... ...and how he underestimates the chances to come back from Bolsonaro because of the current elections in October.

00:02:38: Before we get into the episode, I would like to give you some background information so that you can follow this conversation well as Rodrigo takes it from time to time.

00:02:48: It is because of the rise in Bolsonaro's decision not only for a presidential election in Brazil but also with social protests which took place already back in the year two thousand and thirteen.

00:03:02: It was about increasing ticket prices on buses and trains And then there were pretty big left-wing street protests in Brazil.

00:03:09: But they were taken by the law and basically a new right was formed on that basis, so important tactics and strategies were learned and adapted to the form of left wing.

00:03:22: Now let's move forward... I don't want to talk too much about it!

00:03:26: Then there is the election of Jair Bolsonaro as president.

00:03:31: He has been a military official for a long time in the House of Representatives and represents a very homophobic, extracurricular neo-liberal policy during his first office hours.

00:03:40: In twenty-three years he will be reelected again by the left President Dula da Silva and his party, PT.

00:03:46: Luda da Silva was the former president and actually applies, at least says Rodrigo that too as one of the most successful presidents in Brazil who has done a lot against social injustice and injustice.

00:03:57: Bolsonaro didn't want to recognize this electoral system but there is such a parallel with the USA.

00:04:03: after his electoral system he called for a push and storm on the Brazilian Parliament and now it's been declared and it's being re-elected And because of the existing election he can therefore not act himself.

00:04:16: Instead of that, he sends his son Flavio Bolsonaro into the race to complete his political project.

00:04:23: And although Bolsonaro and many others were a really bad president, they are now asking each other for a very tight race between the left-hand man Habalula, Dasilva and Flavios Bolsonaro ahead.

00:04:59: In the new book that you have coming out this October, I think in English Anatomy of Disintegration what Brazil reveals about the global far right.

00:05:10: You seem to diagnose the Brazilian situation as typical a situation for social disintegration.

00:05:19: Can you talk a little bit more about what disintegration really means in your argument and how the disintegrating society feeds into growing far right?

00:05:32: Yes.

00:05:32: So, well I mean by disintegration In that context is like one of the phrases there are used Is the acceleration of disintegration.

00:05:43: And why me my vast is we must shed a way of thinking and talking about the far right, which tends to take the far rights discourse at face value instead looking what it does rather than says.

00:06:01: Which is why reading the far-right that doesn't believe or takes seriously give a voice to the losers of globalization and what it's offering.

00:06:21: To them is to bring back the nation state turn back the clock on globalization or to turn black back that lock on the challenging or be unsettling traditional gender roles to bringback, et cetera, et cetera.

00:06:44: Not that many people in the far right's base don't believe this is what happening and on offer or they want.

00:06:55: not that many politicians among the far-right leadership say it.

00:07:03: but if you actually look at them as a complex system made up a leadership and the base, made up of different interests.

00:07:14: You know?

00:07:15: The interest... Different national interests, the interests of different social classes, the difference economic interests so on and so forth.

00:07:25: what the far right is in what it does Is actually something else.

00:07:30: What it does is It feeds off the social disintegration produced by four decades of new liberalism And the almost two decades now.

00:07:43: In which we've lived in a sort of permanent crisis with new liberalism situation and which no one really believes the promises are good life that were offered by neoliberalism.

00:07:56: so basically your situation in which everyone's horizon expectation is diminishing everyone effectively expects that things will get worse not better from here on.

00:08:07: but at the same time no one can imagine that things could be any different from what they are.

00:08:13: and this is exactly where the far right comes in because you know what the fire ride says is.

00:08:18: Well actually we don't need to change the system and they do say that you know what.

00:08:23: fighting yes against a system or the whole system is against us.

00:08:27: if i can look at what their promising it's gonna be exactly like what we have now still beginning up five in the morning to go to work.

00:08:35: he'd still be competing against other people in this situation of structural sub-employment.

00:08:40: people will still be exploited etc.

00:08:43: but somehow, that for you.

00:08:49: This sounds like magical thinking, of course and in some sense it is But we can talk about the ways in which it actually isn't later if you think that's useful.

00:08:59: That is really interesting, I also somehow speaks a lot to the riddle why this whole debunking of far right doesn't quite work.

00:09:07: because people always tend to say to far-right voters well... You know?

00:09:13: You're getting better off when your support party but they are far more elitist than left.

00:09:19: or do you think there will be money on your pocket?

00:09:23: actually working hours will be even worse under a far-right government.

00:09:27: And I think the way you describe it is somehow explaining in a way why this is not what people are actually expecting from it and also therefore, Why It Cannot Be Debunked by Telling People How Rightwing Policy Will Actually Impact them?

00:09:46: Maybe maybe The Far Right Can Be Debanked By Itself

00:09:50: i.e.,

00:09:52: What it does once again the power.

00:09:55: so let's talk about what this apparent magical thinking means.

00:10:00: and there is a number of things that are implied in that promise.

00:10:04: nothing will change but somehow your life Will be better.

00:10:08: I mean, first of all that is a promise.

00:10:12: That makes sense in the situation of diminishing expectations because it's much easier to imagine however magical It may be.

00:10:20: its much easier To imagine that the world won't change.

00:10:25: The system will live and one change.

00:10:27: then to convince someone that yeah no join us And we'll fight to change.

00:10:31: this system doesn't look like the system will change.

00:10:34: We you know people The millions of people all over the world went to streets in last decade and existing political systems showed that they're very good at operating with low legitimacy nowadays.

00:10:47: So, you know on one hand if say nothing will change but your life would get better.

00:10:52: more believable in a sense because it's so hard to believe that the system could change.

00:10:57: but, The other thing thats implied there is look.

00:11:01: Your life may not materially changed much It maybe you will still be exploited.

00:11:08: You'll still be juggling several different jobs or gigs In order make ends meet etc.

00:11:14: But...you won't see anyone having good time at your expense.

00:11:19: So, you won't see these migrants or trans people.

00:11:24: You want to see those people having privileges at your expense.

00:11:29: No one is going tell that they can make a joke about the migrant and gay people If in the end of their day being hyper exploited and suffering all sorts of different humiliation You go back home and you want to beat up your wife or you wanna be up here kids.

00:11:53: well that is your problem.

00:11:54: no one's going to interfere in the life.

00:11:57: so that's a whole set of psychological compensations.

00:12:00: there are also implied what the far right is promising.

00:12:05: There was more than final promise which is the bit actually not to make a lot more rational sense which is well, If we kick out all the migrants, if we lift all of the protections that are presently being offered to LGBTQIA+, people or women and ethnic minorities etc.

00:12:30: This means these people will be in a worth competitive position vis-a-vis you!

00:12:38: So if all there is... ...is The War Of All Against All In the market.

00:12:44: actually what we're offering you gives a competitive advantage because will be effectively making life harder for all these other people that were also telling you taking your stuff.

00:12:57: Away from you are taking your rights away from me, but again all these privileges and this is one sense in which the far right could be said to be irrational response interface of A world of diminishing expectations.

00:13:14: If from now on it's only gonna get worse and if the ship is sinking, there aren't enough votes to go round then maybe its time for you start looking around asking yourself who are people here that I'm going to push out first?

00:13:31: And this also part of appeal.

00:13:39: Sorry for short interpretation.

00:13:41: We can send the Vastum Podcast once a month for free advertising and free costs, because many of you support us with a small contribution.

00:13:49: If you are not yet there then click now on the link in the show notes.

00:13:53: already at € three you can support the distance podcast and vastum podcast in Doppelpark.

00:13:58: Thank You very much!

00:13:59: And now have fun listening to it again.

00:14:02: Yeah, that's really interesting.

00:14:03: I mean often the far right is also explained as a result of a hailed neoliberalism Right but in the way you describe it now they appear more to be like really Neoliberalism child and The expression off a somehow radicalized neoliberal subjectivity.

00:14:22: anyway, right?

00:14:23: One hundred percent That's one hundred percent.

00:14:25: what i would say It Is And that's Precisely What I Mean In The Book by Beat acceleration of disintegration, the far right is feeding off the energies that are being liberated by accelerating social disintegration produced by neoliberalism and its crisis in living through almost twenty years.

00:14:48: But obviously what it does to bring these forces together Towards something which can only be the acceleration of that disintegration because it suffices.

00:15:01: That we think about one single thing, Which will be?

00:15:05: The great multiplier of disintegration climate change.

00:15:10: if We don't do anything About climate change was when not really doing we're gonna live in a world that's much more predictable That's much More dangerous where like access to basic resources and will be much Harder, therefore controlling those resources militarily will be ever more urgent where essentially much of the world's population Will increasingly become surplus both in The sense that they can't be absorbed by the economy anymore But also in this sense and in the sense that their lives cannot be And we'll not be protected anymore.

00:15:48: So you know That is the thing towards which We had it.

00:15:53: And in many respects, this is a suicidal project except obviously those people who are at the head of this project expect that other people will die and they won't.

00:16:05: This is precisely why it's also perfectly rational for them to make sure that in these coming states of nature... They'll be best positioned to survive!

00:16:17: To go to Mars or you know to their bunker in New Zealand?

00:16:21: whatever.

00:16:22: It is really hard to see how this suicidal politics is gaining traction all over the world, but we're not there yet right?

00:16:31: So here in our podcast will also always try to make out these strategies that can be useful or effective for countering these developments.

00:16:43: and so In Germany Right now We are speaking shortly after the elections at a state level where the AFD got huge chunks of the vote, both in Sachsen-Anhalt and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

00:16:58: And they are... In Sachsen Anhalt there may even be in government soon!

00:17:03: On a federal level we're still away from a point when the AfD can actually get into government but political developments really pointing to that direction getting stronger.

00:17:17: so against this backdrop it would interesting for me and our listeners to hear a little bit more about how this first term of Bolsonaro changed the political landscape, four social movements for activists in Brazil.

00:17:31: And also what we can maybe extract as learning from this.

00:17:35: so looking back at Bolsonaro's First Term In Office... How would you describe the political situations?

00:17:47: One of the reasons why people were so afraid as second Bolsonaro term was because we expected.

00:17:54: if he gets a second term, He will certainly understand that has a mandate to intensify.

00:18:02: The persecution of political allies and shutting down of the public sphere.

00:18:09: an he would get the chance to name several high court judges, which means that he will gain control over the judiciary.

00:18:20: And once that is done then you know...the likelihood of Adler climbing back from there is very small.

00:18:27: In places like The Amazon in places like basically in the extractive frontier The places were precisely this extremely predatory form of capitalism was made make being made possible advancing and expanding.

00:18:44: It basically meant the killing of indigenous people, The killing of environmental activists in the Amazon and other places like that went up dramatically.

00:18:55: We even had a case of a Guardian journalist who was In the Amazon with a guy Who worked for the government An Indigenous who Was monitoring the penetration Of the region by drug trade And they were both assassinated.

00:19:13: a very big case nationally and internationally.

00:19:16: So in those more dangerous areas, the risk to people's lives went up significantly also because it wasn't only agribusiness or mining that were taking advantage of this predatory capitalism but continuation and acceleration of the expansion of the organized crime.

00:19:38: And honestly, as soon as the organized crimes controls different areas territorially it becomes very difficult to be active politically in those areas if what you're doing is organize in ways that are somehow antithetical.

00:19:59: It was still a relatively, there weren't huge attacks on freedom of the breast or freedom of expression.

00:20:08: So one and so forth.

00:20:09: not then but everyone expected that this would come in a second term.

00:20:16: And you know Floppy boss in Oregon elected essentially counts as a second time for his dad.

00:20:24: we can expect that the acceleration of disintegration will accelerate if he wins the elections.

00:20:31: Having said, there is one obvious difficulty with having a strong far-right in power which eventually becomes much harder for your message to reach significant portion of the population, because by that point this portion of the populations has become so enmeshed in informational ecology and their identification.

00:21:06: That really is very difficult for you to imagine how it could get through them anyway.

00:21:12: This would be an important lesson for people in Germany.

00:21:17: Obviously, in Germany this has been a slow-coming car crash right?

00:21:22: For a long time you've seen watching the far right grow very slowly but steadily.

00:21:28: You do have at the political level... ...you do have that whole debate around the Cordon Sanitaire or against the firewall The Political Firewall against the Far Right But it's important to think of that Cordon sanitaire Or if that fire wall is social terms as well.

00:21:46: Basically, first of all it's very important to make a distinction between voting far right and being far-right.

00:21:54: you know many people might vote Far Right but they haven't fully identified as Being Far Right yet.

00:22:02: And trying to build a wedge Between those two things is Very Important.

00:22:08: You Know Trying To Make Sure That The People Who May Have Occasionally Voted far right who may presently vote for ride because they think.

00:22:17: you know i'm tired of all the traditional politicians let's get these guys a chance but who made not yet identify fully and he may have some points of attrition some.

00:22:30: Resistances with some points of the far right agenda or as a far-right discourse.

00:22:36: those sorts of contradictions must be identified and exploited because what you don't is for people who vote in one election become.

00:22:45: People who identify as far right in next election.

00:22:48: once that happens it becomes much harder to use As a political organizer for you as an activist, even if what are doing is not campaigning against the far right.

00:22:58: Even when you're doing this campaign for the environment or anything because they will be inside and informational ecology on effective infrastructure that we'll make it much harder for any message there might have to get through.

00:23:17: Could you talk a little bit more about how in the current situation, elections where Lavio Bolsonaro is maybe becoming stronger again and may even become next president of Brazil?

00:23:29: and how the left is at the moment trying to organize against this, so are there any interesting strategies you see that are trying to drive that wedge as you expressed it between the far-right politicians.

00:23:47: I heard a little bit about discussions around the six two one shift system in Brazil or free fairs that are popping up again as a political issue on the agenda and where people on the left trying to reach voters through actual public policy.

00:24:05: That is really making their lives better instead of just defending status quo?

00:24:12: So this last government, Lula's third term as president but govern we had in the last four years was a government born out three conditions.

00:24:23: One, of course is the trauma of the Bolsonaro government or the trauma for victory in a far right and the electoral victory and then growth as a political force.

00:24:37: precisely that people went from being voters to actually wearing their t-shirt really buying into those sort of policies.

00:24:46: The other political and economic room for manoeuvring is much tighter in this election than it was when Lula first came to government because, you know we have an extremely far right.

00:25:01: People always say the most far-right or the most right wing congress in Brazilian history.

00:25:07: but also economically The situation is much less propitious then.

00:25:12: It Was at the start of the century.

00:25:15: But that third thing Is a trauma within the left, which is the trauma of that two thousand thirteen protests.

00:25:23: Which was the moment in which there was a mass movement to try and push PT to go further... ...which ended up contributing through a combination of different factors.. ..and make mistakes.

00:25:34: they were made on the part of the Left & particularly on the parts of PT but ended up creating conditions for rise in the far right.

00:25:41: this has meant that this new Lula government was essentially a government of normalization, of pacification.

00:25:50: Which you know...was most welcome considering we'd been living in a situation at abnormality for ten years constant institutional crisis so on and so forth.

00:26:00: but it also meant That It Was A Government In which movements were extremely timid.

00:26:06: They didn't want to push the government too hard because they thought well if We Push The Government Too Hard This Will favor the far-rights and it wasn't a government that could do much.

00:26:16: So, it was a government not bad but what they did is very far from sufficient to win back the hearts and minds of people who were lost Which means they essentially.

00:26:32: we come to these elections in a very similar situation, so the one that we had four years ago.

00:26:37: If you look at the polls now and you compare them to the polls for years ago or You can pair them two the results four years go.

00:26:46: It's a very interesting Situation is like the votes on the left And on the right are extremely consolidated.

00:26:53: There's no movements from one side to be others.

00:26:56: So there's like small margin of Undecided votes that may decide this election and absentee voters May also end up being a factor, particularly because nowadays the age bracket in which Lula is the strongest Is the oldest age bracket?

00:27:18: Which again there's a very worrying sign for the future.

00:27:21: So you know all of this is to say That even though the left were in power over the last few years It never felt like it was on the front foot.

00:28:08: If anything, it's always felt like the far right that was on the front foot.

00:28:13: The only exception to this being as you mentioned... ...the campaign against six-to-one shifts.

00:28:20: so again people working six days a week which is most common scenario in retail and lots of services in Brazil.

00:28:29: This was the first time that the left was at the front food because A, it was speaking a language that's connected very immediately to everyone.

00:28:41: It was saying look this is unfair.

00:28:43: you know people want to have time to spend with their families and loved ones To study invest in training That might give them better job opportunities Whatever.

00:28:56: And This Is Relevance to lots of People.

00:28:59: Very Interestingly The campaign was led by two politicians very young, very talented.

00:29:07: One of whom is gay and there's a gay man.

00:29:10: the other one who's trans woman.

00:29:13: that was never an issue?

00:29:14: Very interesting to you to be not a relevant issue for the success of the campaign.

00:29:21: And it did force the far right on the back foot, because obviously at that point they were forced to make a choice either we come out as being on-the-side bosses which is what really are but then We Make It Clear To Our Social Bays That Were Not Protecting Them or We Support The Campaign But Then We Lose Favour with our allies and supporters in the capitalist class.

00:29:46: So that was very interesting, I think it could have been even more mobilized... The truth is the campaign has been a very bad so far.

00:29:55: generally the PT campaign, the Workers Party campaign lukewarm and lacking in direction.

00:30:04: I think they should have exploited a lot more, the six to one shift issue.

00:30:08: They could've exploited a little bit more of free bus fare issues.

00:30:12: And again The left has been on the back foot particularly In last couple weeks in which Flavio Bolsonaro has gained ground against Lula, so according to last polls they're actually in a tie for the first time since this started polling through these elections.

00:30:30: They are in a technical tie both in the first and second round of the election.

00:30:36: you have to bear in mind that all other candidates is that it will be Flavio Bolsonaro.

00:30:49: And the government has been on the back foot because there's another corruption scandal going on, and this is such a great example of how often the left fights itself in situations where he feels like just can't win... Because this scandal, this corruption scandal hardly affects any left-wing politicians.

00:31:11: There's essentially one important Left Wing politician who's involved.

00:31:17: Everyone else, whose involved is in the right and far-right including Flavio Bolsonaro.

00:31:24: but basically one of the Supreme Court judges was appointed by Bolsonaro.

00:31:30: he wasn't charged with case in the supreme court.

00:31:35: what if you did?

00:31:36: it was to very selectively use leads from the investigations to throw other Supreme Court judges under the bus and particularly those who tend because they were either appointed by Lula, or very active in the coup trials against Bolsonaro.

00:31:58: And to generally create this expression of... The old expression which dates back to the anti-corruption campaign that led to the suicide of Jatulio Vargas in the fifties.

00:32:18: general anti-political sentiment that all these people are corrupt.

00:32:22: everything is corrupt in this government which even though it is essentially a candle that should land on the lap of the right they created this guy, this banker who's massively corrupt and was basically using money from pensioners in states governed by the rights to cover like massive.

00:32:45: hole in his finances, even though this should all land in the lap of the far right.

00:32:52: So far it still feels like its hurting.

00:32:57: That is really crazy.

00:32:59: But would you say that the social movements in Brazil, they are now really shying away from getting involved in party politics or somehow rallying behind these concrete campaigns?

00:33:10: They're trying to improve their livelihoods of people either through reducing working hours by pushing for free fares and public

00:33:19: transport?"

00:33:24: campaigns.

00:33:27: They certainly see that as the way forward and has this sort of thing, then we should be doing what they should do in order to basically create let's say social conditions for a different politics but mostly for a solution.

00:33:46: And this is the problem, I think that an important thing to realise in many respects... The left has lost society.

00:33:54: it has lost the battle or society you know in technical terms the left.

00:34:03: But then, people who don't identify as either left or far right I think in their majority are more likely to end up siding with the far-right and choosing them than they are on the Left.

00:34:16: They're a lot more exposed through The Far Right's message Than they are exposed To the Left.

00:34:22: Basically we have this absolute magician of A politician incredibly talented and has been an incredibly important historical leader, but in his last election he shouldn't even by riot.

00:34:42: He should be enjoying this retirement not even the running now.

00:34:48: And he is you know In many respects I think many people would agree.

00:34:52: it can Be described as being the best or one of the best presidents in Brazilian history and basically if it weren't for him It's highly unlikely that the left would win.

00:35:05: So it basically feels like its only Lula holding all of this together.

00:35:10: and obviously, The prospect is if we don't have him at the next elections which we know we won And We Don't Have Anything Else!

00:35:18: And...it Feels Like The Far Right Has Potential Candidates For The Next Several Years.

00:35:25: In The End They Don't Even Need A Coup Anymore.

00:35:28: obviously they will do everything and anything to erode the conditions for a healthy democratic life in Brazil but ultimately, They don't even need to ban elections.

00:35:40: They could last For a very long time in power And The damage that this can do is a damage That it's very hard to imagine us coming back from.

00:35:54: In one of the essays that I've read when i was preparing for our interview, you quoted Adorno who said... Another way in which I express the same idea, and this essay... ...which i've turned into the first chapter of Anatomy Of Disintegration is that we should understand Bolsonaro as being the encounter between those who have grown tired of waiting for the promises of modernization.

00:36:37: Modern improved economy job relations institutional accountability so on And those who have seized to even pretend that those promises are still an offer.

00:36:51: So on the one hand, and elites that's gearing up for increased predation in a world that will become narrower and narrower where surplus populations only tend to grow?

00:37:03: On the other hand part of those surplus population you feel like none of this has ever worked me.

00:37:11: why should I protect democracy?

00:37:13: what is democracy ever done for me.

00:37:15: Why should I protect the freedom of speech?

00:37:19: How is this my concern, i've never been invited to public debate anyway and that...I think this is very important for the left to understand when trying to fight the far right because on the one hand sure you want them impress on people The dangers of letting the far-right into government and what that might mean in terms of political freedom, political rights, their freedom to speech.

00:37:44: Their healthy or at least reasonably healthy functioning of institutions even institutions such as elections which the far right hasn't abolished anywhere it is empowered.

00:37:57: they've just made them less relevant.

00:37:59: so on one hand you really do want to impress people all the risks involved in laying the far right into power.

00:38:06: But on the other hand you must understand that most people won't fight for an abstraction like democracy, and abstraction that on top of it has done very little to them.

00:38:16: You know they want to know And this is why something like The Campaign Against The Six-to-One Shift System Has been so important because It's actually telling People look This Is What We Can Do To Effect Your Life your material life, rather than just saying oh you can't vote for that guy because he's going to destroy democracy.

00:38:38: At that point we need to understand one of the effects to inflict damage on a world that many people feel isn't working for them.

00:38:52: So, you know... You say oh this is gonna be bad for democracy!

00:38:56: This is going to be bad public today!

00:38:58: Many might think well it's only you elites who participate in those things anyway.

00:39:03: so why should I care about them?

00:39:05: Why shouldn't i destroy

00:39:07: them?!

00:39:07: There was actually one passage of the book in Anastomia Disintegration where we talk for the student protests in the UK, which is a placard that I've always loved.

00:39:23: That said growth as shit jobs are shit.

00:39:26: all i want is revenge and obviously at that time there was very funny Message and a very good message because it's like, you know Don't talk to me about don't give me all these empty promises About the economy.

00:39:39: I want to see that people who caused in the two thousand and eight prices.

00:39:42: i wanna See The People Who Subscribed To The austerity Measures That Came After It?

00:39:47: I Want To See Them Pay For This.

00:39:50: But Looking At It From The Viewpoint Of Where We're at Today we have to Acknowledge The fact That Is Actually One of The Most Preciant Things that you could say about politics in the last ten years for a lot of people was like, well don't promise me any big things.

00:40:07: No one believes in the BigThings anymore?

00:40:10: Tell me I'm going to get a better deal out of these and otherwise destroy whatever you want.

00:40:16: because i dont care this world hasn't worked for me isn't working.

00:40:20: if you wanna destroy it be my guess.

00:40:23: So maybe the left has to become a little bit more revengeful again, also take away some of the resentful feeling... ...of The Right Wing towards better trajectory.

00:40:35: Absolutely!

00:40:36: I mean if you look at things that our however nascent and early days still fragile they might be but y'know how few hope stories in the last few years.

00:40:49: if you look at something like Zoran Mondani's campaign in New York, that is the thing.

00:40:55: He was very good because he managed to be politically on point and tell things they were but still remain funny At it and at the same time in a very casual, in a perfectly natural way against The people on the left who create this force dichotomy saying that if you talk about workers You can't talk about gay rights or you come you can't Talk about trans rights.

00:41:23: So you kind of talked about ethnic minorities.

00:41:25: he would do This in an absolutely Casual way where it's like.

00:41:30: well yes Of course I'm pro worker there And of course I am through trans people.

00:41:34: yeah no big deal.

00:41:35: And you look at how that worked with even ethnic communities, they would normally be described as being very socially conservative etc.

00:41:45: like say Muslim people.

00:41:46: That didn't seem to particularly hurt him.

00:41:49: on the contrary I think it creates precisely a possibility for new political alliance or a new political coalition that is say pro worker and trans at the same time and doesn't pitch those two things has been internally contradictory.

00:42:06: Yeah, maybe Berlin will be another light.

00:42:09: If anyone can pull it off?

00:42:10: It's Berlin!

00:42:12: Yes yeah.

00:42:13: so thanks a lot for joining us again on our show.

00:42:17: Rodrigo Thanks for taking the time and thanks for being our guest again.

00:42:21: Thank you very much for having me again And good luck because there is going to be a lot of struggle in these coming years.

00:42:28: So, like every recording, Inka and I are still sitting together to collect the loose ends.

00:43:07: What do you think after your interview with Rodrigo?

00:43:11: What has been stuck in you for this fight against new rights?

00:43:15: And what would you like to highlight a little bit more about it again?

00:43:18: I found the episode of this conversation very strongly related to Rodrigo's analysis on how he actually got into Brazil through this right click.

00:43:27: A part of his analysis is also globally... You could say that it's valid.

00:43:33: Especially in this first part, where the disintegration of society is going on... ...that society is becoming more and more fragmented... And there are less and less feelings for a whole society.

00:43:43: But that makes neoliberal subjects stronger as well.

00:43:49: Rodrigo says that there exists a kind of radicalized neoliberal subject... That these super-right parties will be elected.

00:43:58: This subject is what human beings... who are still looking at themselves, because they no longer experience or perceive society as a whole.

00:44:06: And what Rodrigo has connected with this which I found really interesting was that he said we have been experiencing constant crises of neo-liberalism for twenty years now.

00:44:18: And most people in the last twenty years have been more or less successful.

00:44:23: That's why there is no hope for improvement anymore, or even a big promise that everything will be better and not catch up with each other any longer but that what right parties do successfully, especially promises like this one won't go worse.

00:44:37: Maybe it'll get you even better if nothing else has changed.

00:44:40: At that point, I found this equality particularly interesting between the crisis of neo-liberalism and then a distortion of neoliberalism over subjects.

00:44:53: This constant crisis experience does not lead to... wish that the counter movement towards neo-liberalism will also become stronger, but it leads to a neo-liberalism from below in Rodrigo's analysis.

00:45:09: The only repertoire which people still have is practically reacting with neoliberal recipes into the crisis of their everyday life so even more to sharpen the horn and stethoscope.

00:45:28: Exactly, that's what he describes with these people who have the more and more frightening expectations.

00:45:31: You've already experienced it for so long now but also experienced it in such a critical way... ...that you can't even imagine anything else, right?

00:45:40: Maybe people are just too exhausted.

00:45:42: The reality in Brazil might be a bit different than in Germany, but I know that from the USA as well.

00:45:48: People work so hard to make sure they're exhausted all this time and there's no energy left for it.

00:45:54: You think you can build up something completely different or create a big wall... But people have already made themselves feel like things should only change as much as possible because change is usually bad.

00:46:08: And that's what the status quo is all about in this constant fighting mode, and a bit against everyone.

00:46:17: deprivilegation or, so to speak, the bad attitude of a marginalized group.

00:46:22: with this amount in mind.

00:46:23: He says that there is a competitive advantage for all those who do not belong to these marginalized groups.

00:46:31: at the moment when they get worse and it's basically no longer everyone tries to race to their top.

00:46:38: It should always go better if you try to improve your situation for everybody And then some can be particularly profiled but actually it's a race to the bottom.

00:46:45: Some people get better because you make many others worse.

00:46:49: And I thought it was really cool to connect with specific realities of life, so that then the promise for a man is part two.

00:46:55: You go to work and you have to give up on this and afterwards you're totally finished or maybe your health goes bad but you can just go home and no one talks about going in when your wife hits your children again .

00:47:06: That's part of the promise in an open way.

00:47:10: Especially as a woman, it's not so easy to hear.

00:47:14: But I think there is total sense in this status quo.

00:47:19: Maybe it's still important to emphasize that society shouldn't change.

00:47:24: But at the same time, it is possible for individuals to reach wealth in a way which is particularly invisible.

00:47:33: So this is kind of a start-up of individualism from social realities.

00:47:37: and then before these backgrounds there was total creation of hope and changing stories with long, strong left-wing policies.

00:47:45: And we're still a little bit shocked when we think okay... A crisis is bad, but at least that's the possibility for people to realize another world.

00:47:58: I think Rodrigo would be very sceptical about it and you can learn a lot from him or her.

00:48:04: Exactly.

00:48:05: I would also say that it brings a real dilemma to the left, because I think even though this shows us our last election victory on the Left, there is still the right to win fear and hope at the base of hope.

00:48:17: If then the analysis is, hopefully not really possible anymore or promises for a better life are actually not so much possible?

00:48:23: Then that's already a real problem with left politics.

00:48:25: Yes absolutely!

00:48:26: So you should look closely at what happened in these past years Even if, for example with Manbani or now in Berlin with the victory of the left, there is always a hope implicitly that it can be better.

00:48:41: I would say Game Changer was this campaign and also why they were able to pass despite such a creation of changing narratives or became successful so that they no longer sell an abstract feeling of change?

00:48:59: So yes we can!

00:49:00: And somehow everyone can imagine what's going on, which is a time when communication was very strong.

00:49:08: But it's just make buses fast and free!

00:49:10: And freeze the rent... It doesn't really matter whether you have hope now or if you think that another world might be possible but maybe you're thinking to yourself okay they could forbid me from increasing my rent and then I won´t increase mine.

00:49:26: That's on another level, I think.

00:49:28: It just sits in a very concrete reality of people's lives.

00:49:32: And that was what Rodrigo from Brazil told us about the six-to-one shifts there are so that people work for six days and have only one day free.

00:49:42: There were these big campaigns around which it actually was relatively successful that the PT, i.e.

00:49:48: Lula da Silva's government party took over this and there really were some concrete improvements.

00:49:58: Exactly!

00:49:59: and I would say that's the point.

00:50:01: In my preparation for this interview, there were a few activists from Brazil in contact with me who asked what they think about it.

00:50:08: where you can really hit the right is by public policy.

00:50:13: And I think that's how they don't like to talk about it so much, because there are not many of them in the offer and then you have to tell Public Policy this way and express that it isn´t what politicians or politicians are for but people who just check on their life.

00:50:30: And I think that's, so to speak the hate speech which can still be seen in this whole dilemma.

00:50:38: Yes and it is also interesting again that in Saxony-Anhalt the AFD has been adopted as well right?

00:50:42: In Saxony Anhalt the AFT has become a free child support and many people have already achieved that.

00:50:47: because exactly how you say like for the left or for the Right if one has concrete policies then life of people will improve.

00:50:52: It may just be in one line and on any task of the left they are first to consider and therefore really hard work would say that there the right is much more restricted.

00:51:02: So they can of course have such a populist demand practically like cost-free guitar treatment, because they stand behind it.

00:51:09: but most of their policies are exactly the opposite and therefore I think despite some cuts as with the Kita which also is a reasonable requirement basically rather an advantage from left groups or left parties or left campaigns to make this change so concretely.

00:51:30: Yes, and what you can see in Germany now is that it's just about democracy.

00:51:37: That this simply does not catch up with the people because compared to how I am right now specifically, there isn't such a great effect.

00:51:46: And because we have often seen that political activists are more important than many other people.

00:51:51: And so far, democracy as an abstract value means where lots of people don't mean much at all!

00:51:56: Because honestly also quite a lot of people exist... in the authoritarian system is okay, but that's what people really want to know.

00:52:03: The question also comes around for them and therefore actually a way-to-go isn't abstract about talking about democracy rather about concrete improvements of everyday life which are somehow achievable or maybe even about concrete rights they don´t have anymore.

00:52:15: Exactly!

00:52:15: And perhaps from the very last point I think you can already see it in the example of Brazil especially, is that we often get the idea like this when they win and then everyone has seen again that it was crap And that this is no longer the situation we are in, but the right government.

00:52:34: In Poland for example you can see it as well.

00:52:35: The right governments who were there may be defeated by leftists again and then they come back to us.

00:52:40: It's just a fight between ourselves where we're now social and not going to be anymore.

00:52:46: Yes definitely!

00:52:47: You might have to be a bit self-critical about being an active political person or campaigner so that one actually has the desire afterwards of saying how do we win?

00:52:58: And I mean, in our podcast it's very practical to give names.

00:53:01: This idea that you can then win with the right strategy or even during an interview with Raluca was also a bit of a thing.

00:53:08: she said this is the final battle over all democracy and It certainly is a very important battle and maybe it will be more difficult to carry out further political battles at the same time no matter how it goes on it will have to continue to be fought and i think That's just a little bit about this topic.

00:53:29: right extremism.

00:53:29: It's here to stay.

00:53:30: Exactly.

00:53:30: Or you can even win and that's probably the good transition to the elections in Germany now, where there is always a hope already given by the fact that the left has won so much in Berlin And because of such a clear vote actually one could say from people with red-red-green government majority Yes definitely That would be an excellent example for how not only the left can fight but also if they are able to win.

00:54:00: We have done these three last episodes before the background of this election.

00:54:08: I think it's also cool when we try to make a little bit of a Christmas reading and what we have now experienced from Poland, Israel or Brazil is connected with the context here.

00:54:20: Tell me something.

00:54:20: What are for you?

00:54:22: Let us start first.

00:54:23: basic, a little overview on things like headlines in your head about these elections that we saw there somehow .

00:54:33: This may sound a bit banal, but of course now we will see the first AFD government in Germany.

00:54:38: So that's an approach that is being directed by the AFD and because of this, Sarah Wagenknecht just helps to change the law.

00:54:45: That really... and I'm also really curious what will happen.

00:54:52: You have to say that the government of course has no hope, because they don't have absolute majority.

00:54:57: And this means that they are going to be on the PSW again and again in order for certain things to actually vote out and pass through.

00:55:05: I think it's really exciting how the CDU will behave, whether or not there is a single CDU agreement, even if we do something together with the AfD once more when things seem to make sense somehow.

00:55:13: There are some in the CDU faction who already... Yes, I think that's a stop.

00:55:20: Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

00:55:21: You can say that the AFD has won quite a lot, I think it's more clear than what is said sometimes now.

00:55:28: There have been three points away and there was already a clear win for the AFG.

00:55:31: At the same time on the other side you need to see that the SPD really got lots of money against the federal trend And under the leadership by Manuel Schwesig.

00:55:40: actually the only option is Brutal Green which in my opinion is pretty good news because this kind of lighthouse is where one didn't expect much.

00:55:48: In any case, I think it's interesting there.

00:55:51: One of the dilemmas in fight against right now on such a party political level is always this we want to keep the fire wall and that means There are always disfunctional coalitions.

00:56:03: In the worst cases, about CDU or Bisslings Party have somehow to try to spread the status quo and can no longer bake some larger projects.

00:56:13: And then I would say Mecklenburg is really a cool case because In the end, he leads three left-wing and moderate parties to form a joint project where cool things can be implemented if politicians use it.

00:56:34: Totally!

00:56:35: I think that's really exciting.

00:56:37: For the left-wing, it's definitely a historic gain.

00:56:39: The Greens have slightly deteriorated and the SPD has already deteriorated significantly but that there is such a red-red-green possibility as well so that Red-Black was also clearly selected.

00:56:49: I think this is good sign for me too.

00:56:54: if you look at these three options now of course Saxony said he just got the most attention because they are so historical.

00:57:01: But when we take a closer look on how many people actually voted then one can see that about the same number of people in the poor countries like Berlin.

00:57:11: And that's not just about right-wing, but maybe you can see it.

00:57:15: The right wins, but the left wins in any case too.

00:57:18: So I would see it very clearly on every view.

00:57:20: On the one hand there is the victory of the left party as an absolute light tower and somehow also kind of the sign that you can transfer Mandani to Germany so that they can win here with this.

00:57:35: We already talked about the Mandani campaign briefly after the election in New York and now practically you can actually see how almost one-on-one was transferred and just worked out.

00:57:50: I think that's a bit of light and shadow, you could say.

00:57:53: And in relation to the left party it is already crazy right now getting involved with German media like this... and a huge campaign is going on, which will be seen in the socialist dictatorship of Caliphate or in total decline.

00:58:09: Don't forget that Berlin is now completely anti-Semitic?

00:58:12: Exactly!

00:58:12: The Daily Mirror also had such an intake where they framed the elections of Berlin for the left party as... What does the Jews care about us?

00:58:23: We are looking for a flat so it's completely wild.

00:58:27: People in the left party only have a big rock there and can navigate it well.

00:58:34: I think if you shoot from all channels, even in the Wahlfernsehen in the RAD, the moderator said after he went up on the bike for the Left Party that built this wall in Berlin has won now.

00:58:47: These are crazy things to say about them!

00:58:49: And such an awesome front is being made.

00:58:51: Yes, that was really absurd for some part.

00:58:54: But now a bit of big picture again.

00:58:55: I think you can see it's just very much in motion.

00:58:58: So the cdu and spd are already quite strongly supported.

00:59:01: but there is also an example around this in mecklenburg-vorpomans And otherwise simply has won the left strong and the afd have won strong.

00:59:07: and yes You find out partly to be able to explain how things will go on, but somehow stay open here.

00:59:11: I don't think it's wrong to mobilize the left this time because of success.

00:59:14: And that is part of this dynamic, which has made the AFD very strong in Saxony-Anhalt but also the left in Berlin.

00:59:19: Yes, so at the point of the non-wailers who were able to mobilize the left so successfully.

00:59:23: I would definitely like this point to be raised again because now in recent elections, actually last years have always been said that okay ... The only ones who somehow managed it are the AFD and right now there is no longer much more than that.

00:59:38: And kind of such an idea where a left party could still get a lot was actually always picked up away for some reason .

00:59:54: In Berlin, the Left Party has just shown them they can do through the House-Tür-Gespräch and people to vote again for a left party who didn't choose before.

01:00:02: Yes, that's right!

01:00:03: And I think one last thing to learn, which I would say is that you should definitely take part in the work of the past few years.

01:00:08: That these are just creating a periphery and such an advocacy environment where there have been no other parties for quite some time now who were certainly not often seen by others.

01:00:22: But they're making it possible to make good moods like this and be able to be on site.

01:00:26: This may also mean a little bit or there's another way back to what we've said before.

01:00:30: It's a problem – it won't suddenly go away again but the AFD has done a lot of small-scale work over ten years and you won't be able to get it back in less than a year.

01:00:41: Then maybe we'll leave that here for now with our choice reading.

01:00:48: Maybe after all three episodes, let's do another short recap on what is important.

01:00:58: learnings from our point about these three episodes during the fight against rights at power.

01:01:01: Yes, I think the first learning that would take me is maybe not what you really want.

01:01:07: But there are just individual tactics and strategies or actions which work well but no big playbook or silver ballad have we called it in another way against law.

01:01:20: And then often the specificity comes from looking at the right places.

01:01:26: What are your problems?

01:01:27: Where can you reach people?

01:01:28: You have to react in different ways and there is no one size fits all solution.

01:01:34: Yes, in any case we wish but somehow show the different consequences that it is not so right to have on one hand.

01:01:41: But rather than always having to draw a little bit of his analysis from the exact political constellation and then develop tactics which can be effective there.

01:01:52: For me it's definitely important learning what I've been through with this relationship between social movements and political parties that complicates these relationships statuses.

01:02:02: So on the one hand, of course, foreign parliamentarian movements are also constantly affecting law enforcement and these laws can only be written by parties.

01:02:14: No movement And that means that parties need movement somehow.

01:02:19: But at the same time we have learned as well That it is a strategic need to party Because otherwise if you look too much into the water of the parties and this party political interest You go in there.

01:02:31: And in German context, we have a lot of these discussions about the topic around tactical choices.

01:02:39: That's also kind of one version of this difficult relationship status between parties and movements.

01:02:45: I think that is something you always need to carry out with your behaviour and always try new things again.

01:02:53: What do you take from the results for the relationship between social movements?

01:02:57: Yes, I think on the one hand it's like you should not put all of your social movements in parties.

01:03:03: On the other side maybe we have to take out our old social movement and mix them up.

01:03:10: There is a case by Dominika from Poland where left-wing movements were focused much more on the Tusk government but didn't really have clear demands against that.

01:03:22: But there is also the perspective of Raluqa, which he said that we really need a change in government.

01:03:27: And for this, parties must be able to cooperate and co-operate with Arab countries, but they have already made clear demands before the elections.

01:03:39: I think it's another approach because one says more about social movements, interests on whether X, Y or Z are happening?

01:03:46: We make demands for that.

01:03:48: That's what you can take a look at.

01:03:50: So not to say that there is a social movement from the beginning, elections and this whole party spectrum.

01:03:56: It doesn't hurt us at all?

01:03:57: That's not even our area.

01:03:59: We ignore it so much in general but just saying no, what happened was a relevant political decision.

01:04:05: we don´t care about anything else.

01:04:06: But then we have demands on which we try to set up our interests And I think those are more of an approach or attitude with whom you can be good on your way as a social activist.

01:04:17: Yes i also think that overshadows these discussions.

01:04:20: You can actually see that the parties represent their party interests.

01:04:26: In the end, of course, you try to get as much data from the Left Party in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern as possible.

01:04:33: It is not in the interest of the Greens to fly out of the countryside and the SPD would like to create the minister president.

01:04:39: So these are all political interests for the first time.

01:04:43: And social movements are more than parties.

01:04:45: then in a situation or even in a position over this organization's interests to think about it.

01:04:50: To say, okay here you need a fascist consensus and that can only be given if certain parties come in.

01:04:56: so there is certain majority or for this we have to get certain parties into absolute majority or a closed minority or whatever to prevent.

01:05:03: So I find that actually full as You said the pool position of social movement.

01:05:09: There are also great differences between social movements who go away from parties.

01:05:14: Yes And I thought that was good too.

01:05:16: Now I have to say personally per day I am already convinced So now in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern to say, the Greens just had to come in so that now for example a red and green government is even possible.

01:05:29: That's totally annoying for the left party if there are still some ... In this case I don't think much at all but if again percent of them go away from their respective spectrum And yet it may be out of?

01:05:51: Yes, absolutely.

01:05:53: And I think you also have to emphasize that in the previous elections... For example, at the federal election or at the national election in Saxony, in front of the same background, left-wing candidates and their direct mandates were supported with such a tactical call for elections.

01:06:09: For example, the left party has also benefited from it.

01:06:13: That's not just important to emphasize.

01:06:15: The tactical choice is exactly because you always look at specific situations and then ask yourself what is the most realistic and meaningful thing in front of this background that we can achieve?

01:06:28: And somehow I already know beforehand that the party is good or bad, depends on the AFD.

01:06:32: Yes, exactly.

01:06:33: And now maybe to learn more from the three conversations one thing that I have noticed in my overview and which is not particularly true right now is that you can already see it on all three cases for activists in social movements under law enforcement governments.

01:06:49: It's dangerous, it's uncomfortable.

01:06:53: Rodrigo told us that environmental activists in the human race and social activists in social movements were simply replaced during the Bolsonaro government.

01:07:03: Raluca from Israel also talked about attacks on civil society which is very difficult for its own organization again and again.

01:07:11: Dominika told us of surveillance at the time of peace.

01:07:16: I think this makes things a bit... This is not just an abstraction, but especially for people who are against it.

01:07:24: And you can already see examples in Germany where a lot more house projects and social cultural or autonomous centres have been attacked from the right.

01:07:32: For example, the cell in Koppos has now been attacked several times by house projects .

01:07:37: But this goes to the opinion of journalists on all parties such as through Siegmund at the Federal Press Conference about Chilo Jung etc... And how do you call it?

01:07:48: It's so clear to us that as a personal threat, we are actually meant for each other.

01:07:54: You can already see this in all three episodes which have been made by us now.

01:07:59: and but there is really no good view of Germany with the AFD.

01:08:01: Finally, the big picture.

01:08:02: Right-wing extremist movements are here to stay so they won't just go away again and ask what do we do when governments run out of control?

01:08:13: They probably don't care that you win them once but disappear from a political map all the time instead.

01:08:23: I'll put it this way after these three episodes rather like a kind of pendulum movement because you get success as left movement in Berlin where one can somehow say Here let's show there is also another direction But then the pendulum swings back and forth or at the same time in a different direction.

01:08:42: And somehow you have to find new ones.

01:08:45: I think one of the reasons why I still have an O-tone in my ear was the conversation with Raluqa from Israel, where she said democracy as a dance – so that you practically always have to make new moves during these political processes and always have creative approaches on new situations again .

01:09:06: That's also not because there is no solution against the new rights.

01:09:14: as a base and now also part of this episode.

01:09:17: Cool, yes I think maybe other things that are left to me by individual tactics in my ear were definitely from Poland, the focus on the affected ones And this choice-making video, in which they have made it very concrete how people are affected by the peace government and why one has to vote against them.

01:09:35: So these affected perspectives will definitely not give up on Israel or Raluqa's periphery but go there and really always give people the opportunity also for progressive change.

01:09:47: And with Rodrigo now just a concrete improvement of human life in the foreground of campaigns.

01:09:54: I think that would be again from the three... two episodes, three different strategies against the right-wing that I would take with me.

01:10:01: Cool!

01:10:01: Well then we'll let it go because there was a long talk.

01:10:06: but after three episodes of course just a lot to discuss and we hope you can take some with us.

01:10:11: for the question what do when rights rule?

01:10:16: We also hope you stay tuned if this is called again... What are they doing?

01:10:18: That's the What Are They Doing?

01:10:29: Podcast.

01:10:30: Concepts and editing.

01:10:37: The music comes from Richard Waterman.